Pastor Brian: Hey everyone, welcome to the Cavalry Callback, a podcast where we take a deeper dive into the weekly sermon at Calvary Evangelical Free Church in Rochester, Minnesota. I’m your host, Brian Martin, and I’m here today with James Lowe, who preached a sermon titled Wolves in Shepherds Clothing. Looking at 1 John 2:18-25. James, how are you today?
Pastor James: Wonderful.
Pastor Brian: Great. First time on the podcast. I’m excited about it. In fact, you’re my first interview of anybody who isn’t Kyle. So you’re a trailblazer. You know.
Pastor James: Big shoes to fill, both literally and figuratively.
Pastor Brian: Yeah. There you go. That’s good. Um, so, uh, you are one of two British guys on our staff.
Pastor James: Yes.
Pastor Brian: Which is exciting for me, but I’ve noticed…. So I’m an actor and I’m a bit of a student of accents. So I’ve noticed that yours and Jamie’s accents are not the same. And I was wondering if you could explain the regional differences in that. So I have handed James just now-he’s not seen this till this moment.
Pastor James: I have it’s a map of England. I’ve seen this before.
Pastor Brian: A map of England. Yes. But you’ve not seen-you didn’t know it was coming, is my point. I’m glad you’ve seen it before. So you guys clearly are from different places, I think. Am I right about that? Yeah, yeah. Okay. So tell me, tell me what influences the different accents. Because, you know, I can tell when somebody’s from Texas, right. Versus from the Upper Peninsula, isn’t it?
Pastor James: It’s the hat.
Pastor Brian: The hat does help. But yeah. Explain your accent to me. Where are you from? Where, like, where are you from in England? I don’t think I really know that.
Pastor James: Well so yeah, on the map you’ve got a city called Winchester. Yeah. Just north of the Isle of Wight, southwest of London, uh, around there really. But I, I speak with a, an odd, uh, collection of accents. My parents are from the north of England. Okay. And so there’s a little bit of a bit of north in there, a bit of Lancashire and then, uh, and then there’s, and there’s a lot of South, the kind of bland estuary English that’s spoken around London and… But the astute amongst you, obviously you being one of them, can tell the difference between the small local areas.
Pastor Brian: Right? Yeah. That’s interesting to me. Sorry if that’s not interesting to you, but it’s very interesting to me.
Pastor James: I answer questions on it weekly.
Pastor Brian: Do you really? I suppose I guess it’s novel.
Pastor James: Hey, British guy. And I’m like, well, actually, Britain’s a complex place.
Pastor Brian: It is?
Pastor Brian: Yeah, yeah, there’s a lot going on there. Okay. More importantly, but still personally. So not only did you preach this weekend, which was great to hear from you, but also your installation service, you know, we took a moment to pray for you and, um, kind of welcome you more ceremoniously and officially as a, as a part of the team. And, you know, we call you Pastor James around here. That’s, uh, I don’t know about you. I had to get really used to that being like almost a part of my name around here. Because the previous places I served, it was like a title I had, but it wasn’t a part of my name. So that. Anyway, that was an interesting bit. I don’t mind it now, but it took a little getting used to. So give us a brief personal history. Like how did we get here? How did we get to the point of installing you as a pastor here? Is that a role you’ve held before? Like just share with the people how you came to be Pastor James
Pastor James: Yeah, in many ways, a long time coming, but, but also, I’m, I’m still kind of feel like I’m catching up a little bit with, with myself with how much transition the last year and especially the last five years has had. Um, I was probably mid to late teens when I thought I might be called to some kind of church work, uh, to some kind of, uh, work, just, just serving, especially in a teaching role. Um, a friend around that time, which would be about maybe 19, 20 years old said, hey, you should go do some secular work before you so-called secular work, uh, before you, uh, go do some, you know, some church work just just then you know what your congregants, what their lives include. You can pick up some good skills, in that world as well. And so I ended up being an EMT, actually after my degree. For about eight years in the UK. So an emergency medical technician working on ambulances, going to emergencies.
Pastor Brian: Oh, I bet that was very interesting.
Pastor James: It was.
Pastor Brian: Hard too I would imagine.
Pastor James: Yeah. And I have to say, and this might sound a bit kind of, um, rehearsed, I guess I’ve said it enough times it probably is a bit rehearsed, but but the biblical worldview completely prepared me for the highs and lows of medical care.
Pastor Brian: That’s yeah fascinating.
Pastor James: The the deaths, the deprivation, uh, the births, you know, the, the, the moments of real brightness and hope, um, in situations you wouldn’t expect it. Um, yeah. And then in 2019, um, I just tried to start an unsuccessful company, which was expensive and stressful. Um, and I thought, I wonder if… And I’d had to close it… Um, and I thought, I wonder if God is calling us to, to church work around this time, some kind of ministry, perhaps in a Christian nonprofit or in a church. And I thought, I better check this isn’t a rebound relationship and I’m just bouncing from one thing to another. And then we spent a little bit of time discerning. We joined this organization called L’abri Fellowship. There’s one here in Rochester. They’re international. There’s one near where I grew up. Um, and they were an incredible kind of residential apologetics, Christian living ministry, a place to ask questions, to experience the gospel, you know, writ large. And it’s domestic in its outlook. And so you’re, you’re, you’re having students in your home, you live kind of on a campus. And so there’s this, it’s very much, you know, in a fishbowl. But that’s what a lot of the people who turn up need, you know, they need to, to see an authentic and real faith lived from a Sunday morning into a Monday morning. And with your kids, you know, with your family and how you host people in your home. Um, and then that, that work wound up about a year ago and was looking for places to continue in Rochester. Um, and I found this job with Calvary that was a good, I think, a good entry level job. It was going to be some good, uh, good companionship and some good kind of understudy that I could do with with the lead youth pastor and. Right. Um, yeah. And so here I am.
Pastor Brian: Yeah. Well, I mean, genuinely like, not just because we’re on a podcast. Like, I’m really glad you’re a part of the team, man.
Pastor James: That’s not what you said when the mic was off. No, that’s not true. You’re really nice all the time. Even when the cameras are off.
Pastor Brian: Even when the mics are off. Yeah. Um, no. It’s great to have you. And I was excited for you to to to do that piece on Sunday. Well, you, uh, actually something you just said was a great lead in to my first question about the passage and the sermon and what you shared. You know, you talked about the Little Children moniker just briefly. Um, and it gets used. It’s been used before. I’m going to encounter it again in a couple of weeks when I’m preaching. Um, it gets used a lot. And you talked about how, um, it was, it was sort of language to describe how like a loving father both encourages and loves his children, but also disciplines them and instructs them. So I think, um, My question is, uh, and because I think this is true for me too. How has being a father, you know, you’re raising some kids now. You’re in that you’re in go mode, right? And with the age of your kids, um, how has being a father and raising your kids changed your understanding of God as a father? Like, how has that helped to deepen your understanding of that biblical word picture?
Pastor James: Um, yeah, I think that the,the weight of responsibility. Gosh, that yeah, that’s a great question. I think in part it generates so many more. Um, yeah, the weight of responsibility, the sense that I am I’m in charge of these guys, you know, they’re, they’re, they’re looking to me, uh, for as a good example, um, I’m needing to step in often to say, you can’t do this or you should do that.
Pastor Brian: The active shepherding, right, you know is part of it. Yeah.
Pastor James: Yeah. So the active shepherding and, and it is that I, I, I, I think it’s really helped me to see the way and the scripture talks about this a lot, especially in Proverbs, that the way discipline is loving. You know, even punishment as part of discipline is loving, that you really have to guide your children well. And it’s increased my openness to God doing that in my life in a way that I would perhaps have been more a sense of, you know, why is this bad thing happened to me? Why aren’t you blessing me? You know, I feel sad now. Why aren’t you doing your job and not looking at the purifying that was occurring there? And actually the fact that, you know, we we often don’t learn actually in as much in good times as we do in hard times. And the I mean, I think Timothy Keller, when he announced, uh, he had terminal cancer, he, he talked about looking forward to the refining that would be occurring, words to that effect. It was a, you know, a Twitter comment that he’d made. And I think it’s given me much more of that attitude now of saying, okay, God, God’s getting involved. And that is a painful privilege that he stooped to do that in my daily life.
Pastor Brian: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I found in myself, um, it’s going to sound weird and it only works to a degree, but like, it almost made me feel bad for God, you know, because it’s sort of like, man, what a terrible, terrible child I have been. You know, like, how rebellious have I been to, you know, because like, as a human father, I know how flawed I am. I there’s so many times I’ve had to go back to my kids later and be like, I’m sorry. I really messed that up. You know, I shouldn’t have gotten that angry. I shouldn’t whatever, whatever it is, right? And here’s God and his perfection as my father and despite his perfect fathering, uh, I’m so rebellious of heart, you know, and and I’m always trying to find shortcuts and, you know, I mean, which is just another way of talking about sin, I suppose. And, um, you know, so I think that’s been been part of it for me and just, but also humbled by the fact of like that God knows everything we’ve ever done, including all the bad stuff. And he loves us anyway. And how humbling that is, you know? Um, and yet I feel that way about my kids. Like there’s, there’s nothing they will ever do that’ll make me stop loving them or make me not want them to be in our family. Not that they’ll never disappoint me or whatever that, you know, that’s, that’s a part of parenting. But, um, but they’re always mine and they’re always loved and, and just knowing that that’s just like a fraction of how God feels about us. It’s just, it’s really humbling, but it’s also a joy to, to be a part of. So yeah.
Pastor James: I think it gets well, the, the, the way grace is something we accept. Yeah. And it helps us to do that. I think more in this like squidgy, useless thing is born into the world and we love it. And it’s not yet done something for us. Probably. In fact, it’s probably done. It’s probably done some horrible things for us, which we’ve had to then change in the middle of the night and then put them in a clean one. Um, but, uh, it’s, uh, yeah, it’s, uh, I think it really has helped with that sense of. Oh, that. Oh, that’s. Oh, that’s how God loves me. Yeah. I’m this useless, screaming, naked person. And, uh, I don’t know where this is going.
Pastor Brian: Yeah. Clip. Clip that one. Yeah. That’s good.
Pastor James: I’ll put that on my CV.
Pastor Brian: I write that on my CV. Do it. Oh, that’s so good. Yeah. Well it’s it is good to know. Like, even as we are embarking as fathers, we are also God’s children. And I think that’s comforting too, right? Like just that familial metaphor. It’s a metaphor, but it’s also it’s more than a metaphor. I think in Scripture, it’s both things. Like you are a child of God is not only a metaphor, it’s also literally true and spiritually true. And that that’s a big deal. And yeah, there’s a lot we could say about the familial connections, you know, brothers and sisters in Christ, all of that.
Pastor James: Well, and I think I think some of the theme of John’s letter is he’s working against the kind of antinomianism, the sort of the idea that we can just keep sinning and God will keep forgiving us. You know He… I think that’s something, again, as as parents, you inherently understand that like, hey kid, like I love you and you can’t stop being my child because you become naughty enough. Right. But there is a whole list of things that you need to do in your household. And gosh, I, I find with our kids, the rebellious age is between like three and nine. And it’s just that I don’t want to do that. I don’t want to clear that up. I want to punch my sister if I’m grumpy. I don’t want to have to be kind or apologize or forgive each other all these things. And so just that, that, that sense that the expectation of action because you’re part of this family is not onerous. And it’s not, it’s not a punishment, but actually it’s, it’s what we want to function well. And you’ll be happier when you do this. Like, yes, just following your own desires, you know, just pursuing your expressive individualism won’t actually make you happy anyway. It’s actually we’re mimicking the Trinity. We’re mimicking Christ’s obedience to his father. We’re not, we’re not being given a task that God has has absolved himself from or something like that.
Pastor Brian: Fascinating. Yeah. There’s there’s just so much there. And it’s so deep and, uh, it’s both simple and deep, which is another thing you talked about, you know, in the sermon, this idea that, you know, John’s reminding the people there’s simple truths here, but let’s go deeper into them because there’s so much more application. And that’s such a, such an important idea. And that’s where, you know, I think even as new believers or young believers, like I think sometimes people get into the habit of thinking like you have to arrive to a certain place in order to like teach. And there’s a degree to which that’s true. But I also think, um, it’s not true. Like in the sense that when we stand on truth, we don’t have to know a lot more about it if we’re speaking, as long as we’re speaking truth, we’re speaking truth, whether no matter how deep it is or, or how broad our knowledge is on that particular thing. And as Christians, we are to be truth bearers no matter what, right? Like whatever we know to be true are things we should be telling others. And that’s all part of it. And so even as our as we’re raising our kids, encouraging them to be carriers of the gospel, right? Which is maybe a more comfortable term for some people than teachers of the gospel.
Pastor Brian: But, um, that there’s truth to be carried there. I think that’s important. Um, let me transition to this other question. So, uh, you did something that I always find fun, uh, which is, uh, I was, I was sort of surprised by, not in a bad way, but like you had said something I had never considered before. Um, that I just found really, really interesting, which was this idea of, you know, even and I like that you even titled your sermon wolves in shepherds clothing instead of sheep’s clothing, which is the, the more common colloquial phrase that we use, right? A wolf in sheep’s clothing, because that’s the more common translation or understanding of it. Um, and so clearly, like a wolf being in shepherds clothing is more dangerous than being in in sheep’s clothing, right? Because it’s not just that they’re trying to blend in and be a part of this, but that they’re actually trying to influence and lead astray, you know, these other sheep. And I think this is such an interesting time in the world to be thinking about this, because you’ve got YouTube and TikTok and all these things where this content, right? I mean, you know, I think about the 1950s and who could speak to the hearts of young people except the adults in their town.
Pastor Brian: Like no one, you know, basically. And now it can come from anywhere in the world, from anybody. And there can be all these ideas. There’s all of these influences, right? Kind of everywhere. So you talked about two sort of dichotomies and forces. You talked about urgency and eternity, and you talked about cultural trends and awareness of culture and those kinds of things. So I thought those were really great practical points. And if you kind of miss the practicality, go back and listen to it again. But, um, but how would a person, you know, knowing that those are things we should keep in mind as a basis, how would a person practically improve their discernment in these or other ways? Like what do you, what advice would you give to somebody to improve their spiritual discernment in the world? And whether or not somebody is a true shepherd and is wishing them well and carrying the gospel well, or is a is a false shepherd in that sense? That’s a really long setup for the question. Sorry.
Pastor James: Yeah I’ll try and go back to the start to remember what you said. But yeah, no, that’s a lot of thoughts actually. This is a real, um, I don’t know, hobby horse of mine. Just something that I will, I will often prattle on about is, is this idea of discernment. And I think, I think part of it is for me, I’m really drawn to like obscure sources of truth, right? So like, uh, interesting in this. So one when the tattoos on my arm is from a secular rapper called Madchild, who will, you know, like a pretty terrible life, really. But he often touches on these quite honest searches for God and for truth and reality. And the the rap that I have on my arm is, is, pertains to that. Um, and it’s just, it’s the idea of finding those little kind of little nuggets, you know, amidst the mud. Um, and so I think it’s just led me to, to really enjoy the, the art of discernment. Um, I don’t know if I’m always great at it, but it’s certainly something that I’ve really been drawn to. Um, and I think John actually, he does two really interesting things. Again, as I mentioned in my sermon, he doesn’t directly address discernment, but in a way, the whole letter is talking about it.
Pastor James: Um, and he does a couple of things. One is he, when he talks about those who went out from us, he’s, he’s using the idea of the church as a kind of a body of discernment, uh, saying that, well, here we have this particular culture, a particular truth that we hold to, particularly the way that we live. And if you’re not of that, you’ll stand out, you know. So in other parts of the letter, when you’re talking about hatred, or he’s talking about people who don’t see sin as serious, um, when he’s talking about people who have this message that Jesus isn’t the Christ, you know, those people stand out like a, like a sore thumb. Right. Um, and so that’s one thing is, is, is, uh, and it leads us into this in a second. I’m going to try and match you a long question with a very long answer, I love it. Um, the, um, that he’s um, sorry, I’ve lost my train of thought now. Um. I shouldn’t make jokes. It’s gone now. That’s it. Story of my life.
Pastor Brian: Well, urgency and eternity. Cultural trend awareness. How does somebody improve their discernment?
Pastor James: Yeah, yeah. So and then the, the, the other thing, just about the simple message that there’s a guy called Sam Aubrey in the UK who’s quite important, uh, writer actually on, on issues of sexuality. So he himself is same sex attracted, but has chosen to remain celibate and has written some great books on it and is responsible for often as a voice within the Church of England, of kind of arguing against that kind of slide towards liberalism. Um, and he says, one of the things you look out for is if somebody is bringing something, this happens a lot within debates around sexuality. If someone’s bringing something, which is we haven’t understand the scripture until this PhD thesis came along last year, that that should be a big warning flag. Something he says, you know, look out for that kind of biblical interpretation, you know. Well, Socrates used this word in this way. And so maybe Paul’s using it in this way. And somehow the church didn’t really understand it for 2000 years, and the Hebrews didn’t understand it for thousands of years before that either. And it should it should raise a flag. The metaphor I used was a tightrope. You know, it really has one direction. It doesn’t change direction because it’s pulled taut between two points, which is Jesus’s life, death and resurrection, his message and his second coming. We’re not told that there will be another that we, you know, watch out for any twists and turns that might come, and make sure you switch to that tightrope or change direction with it. And so I think that’s the general thrust of Scripture is pretty is pretty straightforward. Yeah. Um, although, you know, of course there are moments like, you know, the Protestant, uh, the Reformation where we did think, okay, we’re not quite in the right tightrope, but it’s about going back to scripture. Yeah. It wasn’t about new revelation.
Pastor Brian: Correct.
Pastor James: And that’s crucial. But yeah, I think the two things that come into it that make, I think, discernment more difficult these days. Uh, and I think that John speaks to indirectly, and I didn’t want to go on too much about this, my sermon, but it was something I spent some time thinking about. Um, one is that we, we used to look to the old for advice on how the young should live. Now it tends to be we look to the young for how the old should live.
Pastor Brian: That’s fascinating.
Pastor James: It’s an insight from, um, Carlyle Truman, who actually mentioned in the sermon he wrote another book, I forget the name, but it’s really around, um, around the creeds and kind of the idea of like, you know, how do we, uh, describe our faith well, through the ages, how do we respond to, to, to places where it’s going off course? And he talks about the idea that because technology has moved on so quickly, and often our kind of moral compass has been spun, many times we look to the young as the ones who have been kind of unsullied by our traditions as these kind of like pure kind of, you know, Rousseau’s like noble savage, the idea that culture corrupts innocent children rather than training you on how to be a good member of society.
Pastor Brian: Interesting.
Pastor James: Okay. And so he points to that as this, this problem. And you see it really with the 60s, with the kind of the some of the sort of social revolution, especially sexual revolution that went on. Um, and so we now look to teenagers. And then the other thing we have working against us with discernment is that, as you pointed out, we used to get our input from other people in the village or the town. Right now, our input is not just that it comes from outside of our community, but it comes in private as well.
Pastor Brian: That’s a great point.
Pastor James: And you see this with with, you know, young people as well as older people, they may have gone on a eight month YouTube binge of conspiracy theories about 5G or the moon, or about Scripture, or about how Jesus was one among many people who was resurrected from the dead around that time or around then. And then they built a full worldview with another community of other people who don’t know each other in person necessarily. And it’s pulling out the community that John is, is encouraging us to discern truth within. Yeah. So, so, so we have this problem where we, we, we’re experiencing new narratives from people who are immature or young just in their life or in their faith. And we’re also doing it in private. So I think that’s the key thing around discernment is being aware of those cultural trends and trying to do what John is doing, which is, you know, let the message you heard from the beginning abide within you and having this awareness of who’s gone out from the church.
Pastor Brian: Yeah. So, okay, I’m with you, but connect the dots for me, the dots for me a little bit. Why is in private not as good as in community?
Pastor James: Yeah, I think there are a couple of things. One is it’s easier to be pulled off course. You know, like let’s stay in a flotilla. You know, let’s, let’s repair each other when we’re on the move rather than trying to just solo it across life.
Pastor Brian: Well, how often do we just do that while we’re driving? Right. Like, is this the right way? You know, like, are we going the right way? And somebody else is like looking at the other things around. They’re like, yeah, this is right. This is right. You know, like, and when you don’t have that, you’re less confident.
Pastor James: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So exactly. And, and the, it’s good that you’re not that confident often in those moments because if we were overconfident, you know, the, the classic trope of men asking for directions because we don’t want to, you know, and I think it’s similar with, with, with going through life, it’s humbling to, to actually confer with people and to say, I’m not quite sure. Can you can you check my coordinates as well? Yeah.
Pastor Brian: You know, that reminds me, I spent some time in Kenya on a, you know, about a two week mission trip. And we did some cultural training. And one of the things we learned was that at least in the part of Kenya we were in. Um, it’s apparently considered rude, um, when somebody asks for directions to not give them directions, even if you have no idea where the destination is.
Pastor James: I’m familiar with that dynamic.
Pastor Brian: Are you, okay! Yeah. And I just there’s something there, right? Where, like, I don’t know, I just think of YouTube and people trying to build platforms and like what they, what the algorithm is hungry for is content. And so they’re just going to start saying stuff. Right. And even that, I think even the vehicle invites falsehood, I don’t know, maybe falsehoods too strong, but it invites people to just keep talking, you know, and sometimes they’re going to say things that may or may not be true because, well, I mean, the scripture talks about it as what people’s itching ears want to hear, right? You know, like people are going to fill the void with something. Mhm. And so we just have to be, we just have to be so thoughtful. And we have to, we have to see, as the passage says, explicitly, like, do they express Christ or not? And if they don’t, we have to have a different perspective. It doesn’t mean they can’t say true things, but we have to have a different perspective on receiving that. And while we can maybe learn something from those people, we shouldn’t be receiving them as shepherds. That’s a different thing.
Pastor James: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s it. I think that that’s the key distinction is between people who have got something interesting to say versus people who are who are helping make the key decisions in your life, or helping you to really discern scripture at its heart, you know? Yeah. And of course, there are people who are respected sources. You know, I often listen to Timothy Keller’s sermons or there’s a few authors like Carlyle Truman that I mentioned, who I’ll read with a lot of confidence that they’ve done their research well, they are themselves in or were in good Christian communities and held accountable. They’re not like the AI author who was made up that I mentioned in my sermon. Yes. You know who is probably not in a family of believers?
Pastor Brian: One wouldn’t think.
Pastor James: No.
Pastor Brian: Yeah. That’s great. Well, James, thanks for your words this weekend. I found them very encouraging and thanks for this time here. Believe it or not, we’re actually already out of time. Time flies when you’re having fun, my friend.
Pastor James: I’m looking forward to when you speak in a few weeks and then interview yourself on the podcast.
Pastor Brian: Wouldn’t that be something?
Pastor James: Yeah, we’re changing disguises each time, maybe voices.
Pastor Brian: Accents maybe. Yeah. I said I’m a student of them, so. No, actually, we’re gonna flip it. And Kyle and I are gonna switch chairs. So that’s, that’s the plan. So we’ll see how that goes.
Pastor James: Well thank you.
Pastor Brian: Yeah. Appreciate the time. And thank you to all of you for joining us on the Calvary Callback. We hope this time was an encouragement to you. And whether you’re a part of Calvary family or if you’re listening from somewhere else in the world, we invite you to join us in our mission to pursue passion for Christ and compassion for people. For James Lowe, I’m Brian Martin, we’ll catch you next time on the Callback.