Pastor Brian Martin: Hey everyone, and welcome to the Calvary Callback, a podcast where we take a deeper dive into the weekly sermon at Calvary Evangelical Free Church here in Rochester, Minnesota. I’m your host, Brian Martin, and I’m here again today with Kyle Bushre, who preached a sermon titled This Is What We Know. Looking at 1 John 5: 16-21 in our ongoing series, walk in the light. Well, it isn’t ongoing. Not ongoing. We have come to the end. Fin. Yeah. We are. We are there.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: We are at. We have pulled into the station. It is, it is over. Uh, but uh, but a good a good letter, just a great series. And I love the fact that so many guys on our preaching team were part of the series.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. Super fun.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah. To handle some of this.
Pastor Brian Martin: So it’s quite a quite a baton handoff relay situation there.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yes, it was.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: It was. Uh, a lot of that going on.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: But I love it, I love that so many guys, they can open the word and preach uh, well, here at Calvary, it’s a really, it’s a huge blessing for a church.
Pastor Brian Martin: It is. Yeah. Yep. It’s a good thing. Um, here’s my first question. If Paul were alive today…
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Okay.
Pastor Brian Martin: …Do you suppose the American church would be getting a letter… Of correction and encouragement, perhaps?
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah. And I think it’d sound a lot like the letter to the church of Laodicea in Revelation. I think it would talk a lot about the lukewarmness of the church.
Yeah. What would it say do you think? Address that?
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah. And the spitting out of my mouth. I wish you were either hot or cold. Useful in one way or another, but you are not. So I spit you out of my mouth. I don’t I that’s harsh. I don’t think that that’s it’s hard to say what the American church would receive because it’s so different.
Pastor Brian Martin: Quite varied. There’s far more of us than there ever were in Corinth or Ephesus or, you know, whatever.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: It was a finite group of people. It was a church there. So he’s writing to one congregation. Whereas we’d say, uh, there is a sense in which all believers in the United States are one church together, but there’s really no way of, of writing to all of them, pigeonholing, pigeonholing any of them, um, uh, addressing the particular sins of the American church. I just I don’t think that’s possible. Uh, I spoke very generally on Sunday about there being a quite a bit of a, um, self-help/autonomous streak within the church. I think that’s just a self-help/autonomous streak within all of American culture is what I would say.
Pastor Brian Martin: Oh for sure.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: It’s, it’s absolutely the way Americans think now. So and that has made its way into the church. So I think, broadly speaking, you can say that’s something that our church wrestles with because all churches wrestle with it. Uh, but my goodness, I mean, there’s there’s some fantastic, powerful, uh, gospel centered, Christ exalting churches. I hope Calvary is one of those, uh, that, that are a part of the, quote, American church. And then there’s all the rest. There’s the other side of that that has abandoned, you know, they’re no longer faithful to the scriptures. They’ve abandoned biblical authority altogether. They’ve, uh, ignored and twisted various doctrines, uh, wrenched them out of place, ignored them completely, sometimes mock them, uh, things that are at the heart of the gospel. And, and those, those groups also call themselves a church. So what is the American, i guess that’s the problem is what is the American church, right.
Of course. Yep.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. I may have quoted this when we’ve been together on the microphones once before, but I had a friend who was a personal trainer and she used to say this. She’s like, there’s a, there’s a lot of different ways to be unhealthy, but there’s really only one way to be healthy. Uh, and I like, that’s such a good point. Yeah. Right. I mean, there’s, there’s all these versions of, you know, um, yeah… I saw a guy recently actually, he was like riding his bike, you know, and he’s pretty fit, like just, you know, just whatever not, but definitely was smoking a cigarette and I was like, well, okay, so there’s that, you know, I mean,
Pastor Kyle Bushre: While riding?
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. Which I thought was a choice, you know?
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah, I guess it evens out in the end, maybe lung wise.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: That’s what man, when you’re panting, when you’re like pushing yourself, you got to breathe oxygen. How is that even possible?
Pastor Brian Martin: I’m not saying this was a guy in spandex and like.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Oh, I got you, I got you.
Pastor Brian Martin: This was a guy just like he had to get from A to B and…
Pastor Kyle Bushre: I gotcha he was like on a big like a big French bike. You have like a beret and a baguette and a, was it was it like…
Pastor Brian Martin: French bike?
Pastor Kyle Bushre: He was peddaling. That’s, he was in a striped shirt. Right? Is that what is that what you saw? Okay.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. America.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Oh, okay. Now I understand that that bike rider. I understand smoking a cigarette. That’s funny. Wow. We are really far afield here.
Pastor Brian Martin: We are in the weeds.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yes. All right.
Pastor Brian Martin: Okay, I suppose we should bring it…
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah, rein it in there Brian.
Pastor Brian Martin: Rein it in. There’s real questions. All right. That’s fine. But, you know, I think we’ll probably be getting a letter, that’s all I’m saying.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: I agree, I agree.
Pastor Brian Martin: Mhm mhm. All right. So let’s do a lap. Um because you went through this well. But I think it’s one of these things that, uh, if you heard of the term zombie lie, have we talked about this?
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Zombie lie?
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: No.
Pastor Brian Martin: So A zombie lie is like a thing that’s proven to be a lie, but just, like, won’t go away. Oh, it won’t die. Right?
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Oh yeah, It just keeps coming back.
Pastor Brian Martin: So I feel like there was some of those sort of theological zombie lies in this passage.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Okay.
Pastor Brian Martin: What I mean is there are these things that people misunderstand.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Oh, yeah.
Pastor Brian Martin: That we have to do laps on to make sure that we understand. And I don’t mean people as in as in I’m not one of those like.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Right.
Pastor Brian Martin: We, we can so easily drift. Right?
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Very
Do all sins lead to death? Or alternatively, do all sins lead to separation from God?
Pastor Brian Martin: So okay, so do a lap on this for us. Do all sins lead to death? Or alternatively, do all sins lead to separation from God? Those are two slightly different questions. And yet I feel like the thinking is sort of the same.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah. So do all sins lead to death? Yes. Paul’s very clear on this. For the wages of sin is death. As I as I said on Sunday, uh, when John makes a distinction here about some sins that lead to death and some sins that don’t lead to death, he’s really making in my interpretation of this passage. And I’ll be I’ll just let me just back up and say there are other interpretations that people have for trying to understand what John is talking about here. I do not think those other arguments, and I won’t go through all of them right now, but I don’t think those other arguments are as strong as the one that says that John is making a distinction between those people he’s talking to in the church, the people who are following Jesus and are wrestling with the sins of their brothers in the church and are helping each other along to overcome those sins. He’s saying those sins don’t lead to death because we’re transformed. We’re saved by Jesus from those sins. So now we can wrestle with them together and overcome them together. And he’s distinguishing that group from the group that’s coming. And they’re coming and they’re saying, uh, that you can deny Jesus’ humanity and you can engage in sin. It’s not really that big a deal. And, and he’s, and John is saying those sins are sins of unbelievers. And those are leading to death. And those are worthy to talk about. But that is not what John is describing here. So he’s basically just saying, I’m not talking about those whose sins are currently leading them to death. I’m talking about you, church. And that’s who I want to address right now with who I’m talking, what I’m talking about. So do all sins lead to death? Yes, they either lead to the death of the person committing them or they lead to the death of Jesus. And. And for a Christian, our sins did lead to death. They led to the death of our Savior so that we would be set free. And so now he’s saying, the sins you’re committing, as one who believes that are not sins that lead you to your eternal death, because that’s already been paid. Now let’s just talk about how to overcome. Let’s just talk about what it means to be faithful to Jesus as we follow him closely. And that’s what a church is called to be for each other.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. Yeah. So what about this separation language, right? So because I assume, I presume you’ve heard this too, that I’m growing up, I was taught your sin separates you from God. And there’s a way in which that’s true. And there’s a way in which that’s not true.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Well is it. What do they mean by separation?
Pastor Brian Martin: I know.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: That’s the problem. The problem is when we start using language that’s not technically biblical and it gets a little fuzzy. I don’t have any problem saying our sin separates us from God. When I say that, though, I’m usually talking, I am talking about the separation that leads to death. I’m talking about non-Christian, unforgiven, I’m going to go my own way…
Pastor Brian Martin: Categorically.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: …I am separate from God. That sin, that sin does separate from God, and all sin separates from God. The problem is, I might also say I feel like as a follower of Jesus right now, because of my struggles, I feel distant from God. And there’s a separation between us, right? Well, that’s a completely different way of using the word separate. Now, what I’m talking about is sort of an emotional disconnection or a what the Puritans would call, um, a sort of a, a hardening or a silence from God. And I’m, I’m experiencing this, this painful feeling right now that I have in my relationship with God. Not that I’m unsaved, not that I don’t know Jesus, not that I’m not even trusting in his hope, but I a spiritual dryness. That’s the word I was looking for. Puritans would refer to a spiritual dryness. If that’s what I mean by separate, then no, uh, it’s not the same thing. I just maybe we shouldn’t be using that word because we’re not, we’re told that nothing will separate us. If we want to use the word separate, go to Romans eight.
Pastor Brian Martin: Romans eight.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Nothing separates us from the love of God. Yep. Right. So I just we just need to be more careful in the way we use our words so that we’re accurate when we’re actually, when we’re describing the actual spiritual reality that people experience with God.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that’s a great point because feeling distant from God is not the same as being distant from God. Right. Those are very different things. And I think, um, but I think people get in this trap where they think, okay, the more bad things I do, the farther away Jesus is. I actually think there’s people who believe that. Yeah. And I think that’s an easy and I think most people who believe that haven’t decided to believe that, they just do. If that makes sense.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah. Well, they’re suddenly switching back into a works righteousness mindset. Just a subtle switch, which all of us struggle with. Yeah. You know for sure. And the truth is, in most of my relationships, if I did terrible things to a person over and over and over again, that probably will drive that person away from me. And we are told that our sins can hinder our, uh, our prayers. Peter talks about that with husbands, um, you know, whose sins, um, who are, who are sinning against their wives and that is causing God to not listen to their prayers in a sense. Yeah. Right. There’s sin is a hindrance between us and God. Yeah. But it is not the leading to death in the sense that John is talking about here. John is talking about sins that absolutely are condemning the person. They don’t know Christ. Yeah.
Pastor Brian Martin: Unrepentant sin.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Unrepentant sin.
What does prayer actually do?
Pastor Brian Martin: Is the key point, I suppose. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, I feel like there’s been this,..So last week was a lot about prayer. And I think this passage, obviously there’s more here related to prayer. And one of the things I was thinking about is how I feel like it’s become this common thing sort of out there in the, in the world of the internet, you know, this thing happened where a tragedy would occur and people would tweet out or whatever, thoughts and prayers. Yeah. Right. And so then what’s become now very common is this like indictment of basically thoughts and prayers don’t do anything. I mean, that’s, that’s really the belief. That’s the common belief. And I think even some Christians would say things or people who would espouse to be Christians or both, maybe like who would say, you know, thoughts and prayers aren’t enough, right? And I do understand that because I think there can be a disingenuous nature of people being like, I’m gonna pray for you. But really, that’s just their way of being like, I don’t care about this, you know? So I think my question is, is sort of this, what does prayer actually do?
Pastor Kyle Bushre: So I’m supposed to answer what does prayer actually do?
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. Well, and here’s why. Right. Because my thinking is yeah, people are arguing it doesn’t do anything. But I think it does something. You think it does something.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah.
Pastor Brian Martin: So what does it actually do?
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Okay. Well, let’s, let’s be clear.
Pastor Brian Martin: That was a big build up to that big question.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah. Thanks. Let’s start with this. Let’s start with this. Thoughts don’t do anything. Yeah. Okay. So if I’m not.
Pastor Brian Martin: Good Vibes.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: I’m not sending my thoughts or my vibes. I’m not, there is no you know, there’s no, there’s no positive energy flowing from me to you on anything. That’s all nonsense. Okay? Biblically that’s nonsense. Logically that’s nonsense. Uh, that isn’t anything. Prayer is powerful. We’re told that the prayers of a righteous person accomplish a lot. They’re strong. They’re powerful. According to James chapter five. Right? Uh, he uses Elijah there saying he, you know, prayed for rain and rain came and he prayed for it. You know, so Elijah is an example of a guy that prayed and God did mighty work through it. Now you’re asking me, did the prayer make the thing happen or did God make the thing happen? And if so, what? How did prayer get incorporated into that? Right? I can absolutely say it was B. When we say when we say prayer is powerful, what we’re saying is God is powerful and he lets me talk to him. Yep. Really that’s what we’re saying. God allows me to come to him in my prayer. And my prayer is in some sense, incorporated into what God does. How that’s incorporated is, I think, a little beyond, this is where I think the mystery is. I think it’s beyond my understanding as to how God uses prayer as a part of changing things.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah, because God doesn’t need to be informed.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Right. Exactly. You’re definitely not giving him new information.
Pastor Brian Martin: It’s like, oh, we need help over here. As if he didn’t know.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah. Like, oh, I didn’t see you there. Okay, here we go. Yeah. Um, no. Definitely not. We’re told to go to him. And, uh, as the widow did to the judge, badger him. So, uh, in a sense, he wants us to have that connection. And I believe I, I do agree that I think prayer changes us more than it changes God. God is unchangeable, though, in his character and his will and his nature. So I don’t think we are convincing God to do anything. I think that is, um, there’s an unchangeableness in God’s mind. He knows the beginning from the end. But our prayer is incorporated in some sense into the carrying out of his will in a way that I cannot fully describe. And I’m okay with the mystery. That’s where I fall. I’m okay with the mystery. Uh, I pray. I lift people if I, if I pray for you. And God acts in a way that transforms you or redeems you, or gives you healing or whatever it is, and then you praise God because of it and see that there was power, that that prayer works and matters. Then then you are more, uh, you’re strengthened in your faith, right? And so when I pray for another person, I am building them up in their confidence in the Lord. There’s a whole lot of stuff that happens within us when we pray. And I believe that’s more about what prayer is. It’s more about me aligning with God than it is about me getting God to align with me. That said, I don’t fully understand.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: And I kind of have to leave it there.
Pastor Brian Martin: In that way. Prayer is an act of discipleship, I suppose…
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Oh yeah.
Pastor Brian Martin: …Of the Lord to us.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: It is. There’s no question.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. It is. There’s a lot of mystery there, to be sure. You talked too about the idea of Christians being ambassadors. And I think that’s such a rich metaphor and it’s really interesting. Um, so let’s expand on that a little bit if we can.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Sure.
What it means to be an ambassador for Jesus?
Pastor Brian Martin: How, uh, how does that metaphor work in the sense of how are Christians to be like ambassadors? And maybe part of that is we need to understand what an ambassador does…
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah,
Pastor Brian Martin: ..a little bit in order to understand it.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: So yeah, an ambassador is a person sent by a country to another country to live in that country. And actually the, uhm, but while they’re living in that country, they represent the home country. They’re there with the interests of the home country. And, actually, the way ambassadorship works now is even more of a gospel illustration than it might have even been back in the first century. Because now when you go to the other country, that ambassador has immunity.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Lives under the rules of the old of the country before and, uh, works out of an embassy that that land is the other country.
Pastor Brian Martin: That’s right.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Right. So if you go to the embassy in a different country, you are on U.S. soil at that point. Yep. That very much is a fantastic metaphor for the kingdom of God. So when John writes in in chapter 5, verse 19, we know that we are from God and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. We are from God, living in a world that is not run by or is not, uh, its rules and its values do not align with with our home country.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yes. They’re not the same.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: They’re not the same. They’re not kingdom values. But I have kingdom values and I represent kingdom values, right? And I point people to the king. And so in that sense, I don’t I can’t think of a better metaphor than being an ambassador. I’m so glad that Paul gave us that that metaphor to understand in Second Corinthians what we are, what we are called to do when we come and we share. Now, in that context, he’s speaking specifically about sharing the gospel. He’s talking about as messengers. We come as ambassadors. Uh, but like I said on Sunday, I don’t think it’s a stretch to say we just that that’s true of every way that we live in this world. We are, I know that we are from this world in the sense that we were once part of the evil system and the under the rein, uh, I put rein in quotes there of, of, of Satan and his, his, his lesser kingdom. But when you put your faith in Jesus, you come out of that. You spiritually are newly born into a different world and you have a different reign over you. And local churches are the manifestation of the kingdom of God. But not because of the building, but because of the believers. We are the representatives of. We are, we are. We are the members of that country representing that country in this country.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Um, I people don’t talk about the church like that. The Bible does everywhere.
Pastor Brian Martin: Right. Yeah. Yeah. I would even add, um, that when, when an ambassador speaks officially, he carries with, she carries with her, the weight of the entirety of the government. It’s, it’s as if the president is speaking.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: That is correct. That’s right.
Pastor Brian Martin: So that’s an interesting connection to this to, this idea of, you know, and there’s some ways that that could be distorted. But I think the idea that we are we are supposed to verbally represent.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: That’s right.
Pastor Brian Martin: Um, the kingdom from which we come and behaviorally too. I mean, there’s rules of decorum and things like that are expected that are to be obeyed or you’d get fired. And I guess that’s where the metaphor starts to fall apart. But yeah, but there are expectations and there’s obedience and disobedience to that. Yeah. And I think that’s, that’s really rich. So yeah.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: So to be good ambassadors, to be good ambassadors, to be from God sent to this evil world, we really have got to know, we’ve really got to know what Jesus has called us to. Like we, we have to study. That’s why we study the Bible, right? We don’t just study the Bible to understand, you know what the Bible says better? We read it so that we understand the kingdom we live in.
Pastor Brian Martin: That’s right.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: And I know. So I know what the.
Pastor Brian Martin: And the one that’s coming.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah, absolutely. The kingdom that is, uh, already, but not yet. It is already begun in seed form through Christ and his people. And it’s going to consummate someday. And when Christ returns. And in the meantime, we’re here to let people know and to live out the Kingdom uh, values so that people can see what eternity is like. Now, do we do that perfectly? No. Does the church get this wrong a lot? Yes we do. We are, you know, we have sins that do not lead to death. Absolutely. And they throw us off track. And that’s why we got to constantly be forming and reforming in the gospel, that we would be more and more like Jesus all the time.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah I suppose even the immunity thing carries over in an interesting way too, right?
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah, to a degree.
Pastor Brian Martin: So I’m saved by grace through faith. So the sins sort of don’t count against us kind of a thing in that sense.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Pastor Brian Martin: There’s a funny thing. Uh, I don’t know if you’ve heard about this, but there’s apparently a huge problem in New York around like the UN building because you have all these foreign diplomats and they all have immunity and so they just park wherever they want.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Oh my goodness.
Pastor Brian Martin: Because they don’t have to pay parking tickets. And apparently, like the city of New York fights with them all the time.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Oh my God, you can’t park there.
That is hilarious. Oh, I’m so glad that I don’t have, uh, actual. That would be a hard. That’d be weird to think that you don’t have that. The laws around you, the laws of the land, don’t apply to you in any way. What a weird way to live your life.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah, it does does seem odd. And I, I would imagine it causes some interesting problems.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah.
Pastor Brian Martin: You know, I mean, parking tickets is funny, but.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Oh, yeah. I’m sure it gets far worse than that.
What is the difference between simply knowing about Christ and being in Christ?
Pastor Brian Martin: I’m sure it does. Yeah. Yeah. In any case. So, um, I mean, I, I feel like this is somewhat obvious in one way, but I still think is, is worth sort of digging down into a little bit. You, you compared a little bit, you contrasted I suppose, the difference between being in Christ versus knowing Christ or just knowing about Christ maybe is the better way to say it. So what are the difference between those things? What, what’s the effect of knowing about Christ versus being in Christ?
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah. So I don’t, certainly I’m not contrasting. They are different things and they’re both promises to us. They are both ways of understanding what Jesus does for us in his ministry. One is he teaches us understanding. He opens our eyes to see the world, right? So let me just read the relevant passage. Here is verse 20. And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. So it’s both, but they are different. Uh, one, uh, is that we know Christ. Uh, who is true? So we look at Christ. We listen to what he says, and we watch what he does in Scripture. And we, uh, have an understanding of what the truth really is. What, how, how what does it mean to live truly? How do how do I live in a flourishing way? How do I, how do I understand the world and make sense of the world that I’m in? I listen to Jesus, I listen to Jesus and to God’s word, right? All of it all, all the books of the Bible are God’s Word to us, revealing principally what who Jesus is and what he’s done for us and and how to live. How do we now live in light of that truth? God gives us understanding through His Word that we would not have otherwise. Clearly, because if you look to folks who don’t know the Lord, they have a completely different set of values. But those who are gaining their values from Scripture are have an understanding of the world as it really is. And I stand by that.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Uh, you want to really make sense of the world. You want to, you know, if you’re struggling, if you are struggling to know why the world is the way it is, study the Bible. God is telling us why the world is the way it is. He’s showing us not only he’s showing us, uh, not only the brokenness of the world, he’s showing us how it gets fixed and it all gets fixed in Christ. And so we gain that understanding by looking at Jesus. But then we’re not just learning as if Jesus is our teacher and we’re in a classroom and he’s showing us true things, and then we write those notes down, and then we’d go and try to live our lives on our own. No, no, no. This is even more intimate than that. We’re not just understanding from Jesus. We are in Jesus. Yeah. In that we’ve been spiritually united to him in his death and resurrection. We are bonded together with him through the infilling of his Spirit and bonded to one another because we’re filled with the same spirit. And, and so this is an actual spiritual transformation. It’s an actual spiritual reality that takes place within us in addition to just the knowledge, right? And so the knowledge about God matches up with the spiritual reality we have with God in Christ and makes us new creatures, new creations. Um, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a transformation of heart, mind, soul, and strength is what Christianity is. And, and I think John captures that beautifully here. Um, so, so yes, I need to learn from Jesus as my teacher. And I also need to be bonded to him as my savior.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah, yeah. I later in life than I probably should have I started to grapple with the reality. Like, I think one of the implications of this passage is that unless you have the spirit within you, you can’t fully understand certainly who God is. But even what Scripture is saying.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yep that’s right.
Pastor Brian Martin: And I’m reminded of, um, I took a college course, uh, when I was in school. Um, it was Bible and I was like, I can get credit for this. Awesome.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah.
Pastor Brian Martin: And I took the course and it was taught by someone who I’m fairly convinced was not a believer.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Oh yeah. Most of them are… those those contacts.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah, yeah. I mean, this was a this was a Catholic college…
Oh, okay, that i didn’t know.
Pastor Brian Martin: …Which is interesting. No, I know right. So okay. Um, and it was interesting because I just assumed the person teaching this class would be a believer.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah. You would in that context.
Pastor Brian Martin: And then I got in the class and I was like, I don’t think she’s a believer. You know, like, anyway, it was one of those times where I was like, well, this is interesting. Yeah. And, um, you know, on one hand, I was like, well, that’s kind of disappointing. And I think since then, I’m like, no, there’s this supernatural thing that happens of, you know, you can know facts about Jesus, but if you, if you’re not in Christ, you can’t really know who he is. You can’t really understand the word of God without the spirit revealing that to you in a real way. And so that’s where there, um, I agree with exactly everything you said in the sense of knowing and being in are very much overlapping and are the same in one sense, but it’s also possible to know about Jesus and not know him at all.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: The doctrine of illumination, the Holy Spirit working in our minds and hearts to show us how to apply. When we, when we hear, when we read the Word of God, we are hearing our Shepherd. Jesus said, my sheep will hear my voice, and they will follow me. Right. That voice is going to go out to all sorts of people. The sheep are the ones that are going to hear and follow. And so he’s saying, yeah, there’s going to be a spiritual transformation. It’s going to open your eyes to hear from the Lord and you’re going to follow him. That’s God’s work. That’s God at work in our hearts. Uh, Paul prayed, open the eyes that open the eyes of the heart. Right. We got that song that we sing. It comes from, uh, I believe it’s Ephesians, uh, where he says, uh, where he hopes that he prays that their hearts would be enlightened, that their eyes would be opened. Yeah. So that they would know the fullness of Christ. Um, that’s a work of God in us and, and transforms us. Uh, so you can be, you move from being a mere reader of scripture to being a listener and a follower. Uh, because you’re hearing from God. Yeah. Big difference.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. It’s rich. Mhm. So it is the end of the series. Uh, so as we reflect on that, as you reflect on that. Yeah. Um, on the series, but, but really on 1 John, is I guess what I mean more than anything. What have you learned or been challenged by in, in doing this? And, and as I say that too, like, I just want to take a moment to remind us all, like, we all know this, right? That teaching is the best way to learn. And that’s, and it does really work on us. And so I would just say that into the microphone in order to say like, if you’re stuck in your spiritual journey, listener, start teaching the word. Studying it and teaching it, whether, whether you’re teaching it to children, call Laura. Yeah. Laura. Laura could use more help. Yeah, but that’s not a recruitment pitch. It’s actually a discipleship persuasion that I’m trying to make. Like, if you need to grow, you need to be teaching. So anyway, but that’s an aside. Um, yeah. What have you kind of been challenged by, learned personally through preparing this series? I know you didn’t teach all of it, but you. You outlined it all and everything.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: I would say. I would say that the thing that most personally convicted me as I as I prepared this letter and walked through it and digested it and, and, and learned from it and listened to John the Apostle teaching me by the spirit, and feeling the weight of conviction and the the movement of the spirit pushing me to become more like Jesus. I’d say the thing that stood out to me the most was when I taught on the passages that called me to really consider the patterns of sin in my life.
Pastor Brian Martin: Mhm.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: And what I’m doing with them.
Pastor Brian Martin: Mhm.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: So, you know anyone who makes a practice of sin, right, doesn’t know Christ. And I say to myself, have I made a practice? Do I have a pattern of sin that is inside of me, that comes out of my mouth or whatever that is that is going unaddressed simply because I’m not being serious enough about it. I don’t believe that that is, I don’t believe that that is separating me from Jesus or anything. I love the Lord. I want these things to emerge. But I also recognize that, you know, I’m, um, I can be blind to my own sinful patterns as well. And so I really wrestled with that as through throughout this, you know, uh, Lord, is there a, is there a meanness within me? Is there a, a way, a, a way of living that is not in alignment with the spirit? Where might I be finding, um, uh, comfort in my own, uh, salvation that is causing me not to take seriously some, some sin in my life that is, uh, that’s an affront to God. And I you know, it’s interesting how you can be convicted of sin at certain points in your life, move past certain sins, and then just be completely blind to others. And so, uh, I spent a lot of time just praying, praying, and thinking about my, my own, uh, my own stumbles, my own faults, my own, uh, pride. It keeps me away from repenting and turning and trusting in Jesus. And, um, and so I was able to wrestle through some things and see some stuff in myself that I was able to bring out and say, Lord, I don’t want to be like this. Make me more like Jesus in these ways. Uh, and I think that’s, that’s what we should, we should all be doing with a letter like this. Again, it is a spiritually transforming letter. As I said, you don’t read first, John, get to the end of it and go, yep, doing good, and all of that. Yeah. Let’s move on to the next one. Right. And if you do, you haven’t read it very closely.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: It’s a deeply transformative. And I can say that it’s been deeply transformative to me.
Pastor Brian Martin: Mhm. Yeah. I think as I’ve been reflecting, I, you know, I didn’t teach as much of it as you have, but I’ve been sitting under the teaching, of course. And I think to your point, wrestling with the sin. Absolutely. That theme is there. And I think that’s, that’s amazing to, to be able to receive that from the Lord. Um, I would add to like, even if you think you’re doing well on the not sinning so much part or whatever. Well, the first half of the letter is really emphasizing, but is love the thing that’s leading your life?
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Right
Pastor Brian Martin: So it’s like, even if you think you’re a good little boy, you know, or whatever, right? It’s more than that, you know, and there’s a difference, right? There’s, there is definitely a difference between being a nice guy and leading with love. Those are not the same thing. I think sometimes they get conflated by society, whatever that means. But I think sometimes those things look the same from a distance, but up close they don’t. And it’s like just this call to be loving of all the people we encounter. You know, we have certain responsibilities to the church, but we have responsibility to the world. And the way we’re supposed to love.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: And a couple of times in the letter, he said, you can’t you can’t say you love God and hate your brother. You can’t say you love God and treat people poorly. It better be genuine.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s, you know, we don’t, if we’re in Christ, we don’t need to doubt our status as son.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Nope.
Pastor Brian Martin: Our status as daughter. You know.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: That’s right.
Pastor Brian Martin: But we should work out with fear and trembling. Am I a good son? Yeah. You know, not good in a performative way. But am I bringing honor to my father? Yeah. In the way.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Am I living an authentic Christian life? Or have I, ambassador? Yeah. Have I embraced some idol I’m not even aware of? Little children keep yourselves from idols. They’re going to crop up. They’re gonna try to cram their way into your life. You’re going to find yourself fixed on things that are not pleasing to the Lord. Um, you’re going to be fixed on things that are good gifts, but shouldn’t be elevated to the level you’ve put them. These are idols. We got to get rid of them so we can be faithful to the Lord in all things.
Pastor Brian Martin: That’s right. Mm. Well, it’s been a great series. It’s fun to finish it off and, and move on to Luke, back to Luke.
Pastor Kyle Bushre: Back to Luke.
Pastor Brian Martin: So that’s great. Well thanks Kyle, and thanks to everybody else for joining us on the Calvary Callback. We hope that this time was an encouragement to you. And whether you’re a part of our Calvary family or if you’re listening from somewhere else in the world, we invite you to join us in our mission to pursue passion for Christ and compassion for people, for Kyle Bushre, I’m Brian Martin. We’ll catch you next time on the Callback.
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