[00:00:01] Pastor Brian: Hey everyone, and welcome back to the Calvary Callback, a podcast where we take a deeper dive into the weekly sermon at Calvary Evangelical Free Church here in Rochester, Minnesota. I’m your host, Brian Martin, and I’m here today with Kyle Bushre, who preached a sermon titled Spiritual Authority, looking at Luke 20, verses 1-8 in our ongoing series, Salvation Has Come. Happy Monday Kyle.

[00:00:25] Pastor Kyle: Oh, happy Monday to you as well. Yes. Uh, into the 20s now in Luke.

[00:00:30] Pastor Brian: Yeah.

[00:00:30] Pastor Kyle: Yeah.

[00:00:31] Pastor Brian: And this feels like progress.

[00:00:32] Pastor Kyle: Yeah. We’re getting there a few verses at a time. So yeah.

Sincere and Insincere Questions

[00:00:37] Pastor Brian: Love it. Okay. Well, election week, you mentioned it. We prayed for it. Um, if you were elected governor of Minnesota.

[00:00:44] Pastor Kyle: Oh my goodness.

[00:00:45] Pastor Brian: What are some new laws you’d hope to put into place?

[00:00:48] Pastor Kyle: Wow.

[00:00:48] Pastor Brian: You know, and they could be laws of the absurd, you know, like, can I tell you one of mine?

[00:00:52] Pastor Kyle: Okay. What’s your, what do you got?

[00:00:54] Pastor Brian: Just to give you some time to think too. All right. Like, I feel like it can’t be called closeout unless it’s at least 70% off. Do you know what I mean? Like, don’t tell me it’s closeout and then give me 10% off. That’s just…

[00:01:09] Pastor Kyle: Wow.

[00:01:10] Pastor Brian: I’m offended by that. You know what I mean? Like there should be a law about that.

[00:01:13] Pastor Kyle: Yeah. I don’t shop nearly enough for that to be a thing that bothers me. Um, I don’t know. I guess here’s what I would say if you get pulled over. I think that you should get a real true hearing with the police officer about why you were going so fast. I think they ought to just factor that in.

[00:01:36] Pastor Brian: Okay.

[00:01:36] Pastor Kyle: I don’t get pulled over a lot. It’s not like I’m speeding out there or anything like that. Yeah. It’s not like I wouldn’t probably benefit a lot, but I can definitely see. So if you say, um, I just wanted to get to work faster or I have no good reason, you get a ticket. But if there’s, you know, if you’ve got, uh, medical emergency.. Now, maybe they actually do weigh that in? I’m not sure.

[00:01:58] Pastor Brian: I would imagine in practice they actually do.

[00:02:02] Pastor Kyle: Yeah, I would think so. Maybe then they throw the lights on and get you where you need to go.

[00:02:06] Pastor Brian: Maybe.

[00:02:06] Pastor Kyle: But I just feel like there’s a wide range of reasons that you might be moving more quickly than you should. So yeah.

[00:02:14] Pastor Brian: All right, here we go. Let’s make it theological.

[00:02:16] Pastor Kyle: Okay.

[00:02:16] Pastor Brian: Should Christians, as an act of submission to authority, drive at or under the speed limit at all times?

[00:02:22] Pastor Kyle: Oh, that’s a good one. I actually think yes. I do too. I think the answer is yes, because God puts governments in place and governments make rules. And those are, it’s actually I. Some people go, I don’t think things some laws are not moral or immoral. They’re just amoral. And I would say no, every single law, every law. People say you can’t legislate morality. Every law is legislated morality.  The reason you go slow is because we want to protect human life. And if you go over it, you’re basically saying to the government, I don’t care what you think protection of human life looks like. So, uh, yeah, I actually do think it’s a yeah, you should stay under. Um, I don’t always, um. And that’s on me. Um, but I do wrestle with that and we should, I think.

[00:03:15] Pastor Brian: The main road, I live almost on… You’ve been to my house, almost on a corner. Um, I’m like the second house up. And so the main road leading to my house is 30mph. So I set the cruise for 30. Isn’t that funny? But I’m just like. And some of my neighbors really don’t like getting behind me, you know, because they want to go 45. And it’s fine but there’s also a school between me and home, you know, it’s just like, like a preschool. So it just.

[00:03:42] Pastor Kyle: And there’s all those slow children out there that are at play.

[00:03:45] Pastor Brian: Right, right.

[00:03:47] Pastor Kyle: All children are slow. We know from the signs, so we just want to make sure that they’re cared for.

[00:03:53] Pastor Brian: Oh boy. That’s something. So anyway, any listeners with a lead foot, I’m just saying you should probably think about it.

[00:04:00] Pastor Kyle: Yeah, maybe, maybe.

[00:04:01] Pastor Brian: And you’re right. The reasons are, it is about ultimately protecting human life. Whether the driver or the pedestrian or whatever.

[00:04:08] Pastor Kyle: Yeah.

[00:04:09] Pastor Brian: Like, um, you know, I have a kid who’s learning to drive right now. We were just talking about how over time, you’ll be able to understand probably what the speed limit is supposed to be just by feel. And it mostly has to do with how close the buildings are to the road. I mean, that’s the main factor in sort of how they determine. And that’s because there’s people in those buildings, right? I think I mean, ultimately that’s what’s under it. And so yeah, I think this is a valuing human life thing.

[00:04:35] Pastor Kyle: You know what law I would love to see passed is…

[00:04:37] Pastor Brian: Here we go.

[00:04:37] Pastor Kyle: I know we need to get into the good stuff. But, but I would say this, just I think that all states should legislate that all restaurants run the way Chick fil A runs.

[00:04:48] Pastor Brian: Oh.

[00:04:49] Pastor Kyle: And that everybody has to have Sunday off and that…

[00:04:52] Pastor Brian: Oh, wouldn’t that be something. I mean, aren’t we only a generation removed from that generally being true?

[00:04:57] Pastor Kyle: Yeah. Well, yeah. Kind of. I mean, roughly, but more culturally though, right. Well, I don’t know. I mean, maybe two generations. Yeah. There were some Sunday laws in there that. But I don’t actually I don’t, I want that, but I don’t want that. I want that because I think that’d be great for everybody. I don’t want that because now we have our government making choices that have to do with uh, scriptural types of commands and things. And I think we’re getting dangerously close to, um, moving in a direction we really don’t want to go as a country, but I do think it’d be awesome. I think it would be great for people who work in those environments that they would get to have that day off, which would be fantastic. Throw Wednesday night in there too, if that would be helpful, but..

[00:05:39] Pastor Brian: That one might be harder to pass.

[00:05:40] Pastor Kyle: Yeah, that’d be pretty hard to pass that one. But, uh, yeah, I’d love to see more free time to be able to engage in other things.

[00:05:49] Pastor Brian: Wouldn’t that be interesting? And I find it interesting sort of on the other side of it, that Chick fil A has been so, set aside anything else, profitable with this model?

[00:06:00] Pastor Kyle: Oh, sure absolutely.

[00:06:01] Pastor Brian: And hardly anybody else is copying it. And I find that really, really interesting. They just can’t get past the mental hurdle, you know?

[00:06:07] Pastor Kyle: Yeah. I mean, and happy workers. Boy, I think they would love to have that day.

[00:06:13] Pastor Brian: And the truth is the higher ups still work on Sundays often. You know, we have several who work at this church and like, there are sometimes things that need to happen, but the vast majority of the workforce does not work on a Sunday. Yeah. So it’s pretty great. Pretty great. So all right, moving on to more real things, I suppose. No, I don’t know.

[00:06:33] Pastor Kyle: I won’t be Minnesota governor anytime soon.

[00:06:35] Pastor Brian: I mean, you never know how many write-ins you might get after that comment.

[00:06:38] Pastor Kyle: No, no.

[00:06:40] Pastor Brian: I’d vote for you, buddy.

[00:06:42] Pastor Kyle: Oh, thanks man, I appreciate that.

Kyle’s Father’s Influence on his Faith Journey

[00:06:44] Pastor Brian: So you did mention your dad in this sermon. And of course he passed a little while back. I have never met him. So. But tell us a little about him and how he impacted your story, your spiritual journey, like. Tell us about that.

[00:06:56] Pastor Kyle: Yeah, my dad was a fantastic guy. Um, I deeply love him, miss him all the time. Um, he was a guy that was full of joy and humor. So I get, so some people, you know, talk to me about my humor sometimes. I get my humor from my dad. So I am shaped by my father in that way. I’m also shaped by my dad to be a hard worker. Um, he cared a lot for his family. A loving man, interestingly, is a good example and would be happy for me to use him as an example. I often tell this story in the membership class, but, uh, my dad would be, uh, happy for me to tell you that he’s one of these guys that went to church all his life, all his life. Um, because that’s just what you did as an American. And he just lived his life kind of in the Christian culture but didn’t follow Jesus until he was 50 years old. I was a freshman. It was my first week at college. My parents came up, um, before classes even began in the fall of 1996. And let me know that my dad had colon cancer.

[00:08:08] Pastor Brian: Mhm.

[00:08:09] Pastor Kyle: And, um, at the time, I, I didn’t know much about any of that. I just heard the word cancer and thought death sentence. I thought that was the end. Um, I was broken over that idea, but then so was my dad. See, my dad, my dad’s heart was shaken by this because he was staring at eternity. He didn’t know. Um, and he realized he didn’t have a relationship with Jesus. And so my dad, uh, my dad through that ordeal ended up putting his faith truly in Christ. He was truly regenerate, transformed in heart. And I know this because dad got weird. Uh, it was strange for my dad to become a Christian. He just loved the Lord and it was so different than what I had seen in him. We didn’t talk about faith things at home really. My mom has followed Jesus all her life. Truly followed Christ all her life. Um, but dad became a baby Christian at the age of 50. And I mean, this guy starts, he starts writing poetry, he starts writing poetry about how much he loves the Lord and the different parts of his life that he went through that now he could see through a theological lens, through a gospel lens.

[00:09:24] Pastor Kyle: And, uh, yeah, he ended up sort of self-publishing a little book of poetry. And, um, uh, it just became a part of his artistic life to express his love for God in words. Um, and then we would have theological conversations. I didn’t become a Christian until two and a half years after that. But part of my journey toward Jesus was seeing my dad’s transformation and realizing that wasn’t me. Two and a half years later, I started to see I was a different guy. Um, that dad had become a different guy and that I needed to become a different guy. And, um, and that was another sort of a move toward, uh, my coming to faith in Jesus. So my dad was a fantastic guy, just a wonderful man to be around. And I, yeah, I miss him a lot. But, um, almost all of his shaping, theological shaping in my life, disciple making in my life happened after I went to college and his influence there.

[00:10:22] Pastor Brian: Fascinating. So interesting too how, you know, depending on your story, some people have to sort of become something new to become a Christian. I mean, we all do theologically speaking, but, um, it’s, you know, I used to be this and now I’m this. And I think that’s, you could also say that about your dad, but in another way, he sort of had to say I was sort of pretending to be this, and I don’t mean that rudely, but just like the humility it takes to say, actually, this is different now, even when he was in the church. I just really respect that. I think that’s really interesting.

[00:10:57] Pastor Kyle: Yeah. For him to be broken like that and to put his faith in Jesus and to, to recognize that just his attendance at church his entire life doesn’t matter. It doesn’t ultimately matter. And I would say that to our listeners too. If that’s, if the extent of your Christianity is attendance at church and being a good person, this is the other part of it. If going to church and being a good person is the extent of your Christianity, I would gently say to you, you’re still believing in works righteousness.

[00:11:25] Pastor Brian: Mhm.

[00:11:26] Pastor Kyle: You’re still looking at yourself through the lens of a guy or a girl who does good and God accepts you because of it. And that was where my dad was. And my dad became a fantastic example of a guy that was transformed in heart. And for, uh, let’s see, I so, 49 when that happened. Uh, so I don’t know, roughly 24 years until he passed away. He was a growing Christian. And it was awesome to see him.

[00:11:55] Pastor Brian: So cool.

[00:11:55] Pastor Kyle: Yeah.

[00:11:56] Pastor Brian: So cool. So a little bit to that point, I think. So to get into the passage here a little bit. Right. So here it’s described as the chief priests and the scribes with the elders. And we see Jesus engage with these different groups. I kind of kind of most famously, you know, the Pharisees get named and, you know, there’s these different groups who oppose him over the time. So how are we to see the Pharisees? What I mean is, are we just to see them as villains in the story? Are we to see them as like, relatable antagonists, that we should be seeing ourselves in them. When we’re approaching these stories of the opposition to Jesus where do we put ourselves into the reading of that and how does it apply to us? I mean, we don’t put ourselves in the reading, but how does it apply to us when we’re when we’re looking at that? Because I think we can dismiss them too easily. Like, oh, they’re just the bad guys. Well, that’s not, there’s more to it than that.

[00:12:57] Pastor Kyle: Right. We would not have seen them as the bad guys at the time.

[00:13:00] Pastor Brian: Right.

[00:13:01] Pastor Kyle: These were the religious elite of the community. These were the people who know their Bibles. So, uh, yeah, it would be if we just villainize them, which sometimes movies do, uh, because they, we do really only get, uh, one sort of look at this community most of the time.

[00:13:20] Pastor Brian: Yeah they were plotting to kill him. So there’s that too.

[00:13:22] Pastor Kyle: Yeah. Well, and it’s that, that group of Pharisees. We have to remember, though, that there are there’s the Joseph of Arimathea. There’s the Nicodemus who comes in the night. There’s, people who were a part of that community, who really knew their Bibles, who also were really excited about Jesus and came to put their faith and trust in him. And so we can’t just look at them through just from one angle, although we’re invited to do that over and over again because they do so often, uh, prove to be the antagonist in these stories. So, um, yeah. Um, how do we see them? We should see them as, as a warning, frankly. We should see them as a warning for those who really know their Bibles that you can really know your Bible and you can be a religious person. And you can have, uh, religious clout and you can have a lot of knowledge even and miss Jesus. And in that way, I would say, um, they serve as an example to us of what to avoid. And that’s kind of, I mean, when I talked about them on Sunday, that’s what I talked about. Like, here’s a negative example, here’s a spiritual journey that you don’t want to be on. And Jesus through the gospel is inviting you actually to have a different experience and an actual new life and salvation that comes through Christ alone. And these guys just can’t see it. They can’t hear it. So, uh, I believe that the Pharisees are to be pitied, maybe. Or they serve as a warning to us of just how religious you can be and miss salvation altogether.

[00:15:10] Pastor Brian: Right. Yep. And that they are real people, right? These aren’t just monolith characters. These are actual humans who are struggling through this or not, but they were engaging with it in real time. And, you know,  it’s not a, you know, it’s not some over-the-top, um, you know, ridiculous play or movie that you see.

[00:15:35] Pastor Kyle: Right, like a melodrama.

[00:15:38] Pastor Brian: Where the evil is pure evil, and the good guy is pure good. And it’s like, well, it’s not that simple. I mean, Jesus was pure good, I guess, but.

[00:15:45] Pastor Kyle: Right, right.

[00:15:46] Pastor Brian: Outside of that, I mean, you’ve got flawed and complex people. And to that point too, I was, I think in my 20s when somebody explained to me like, oh, yeah, there’s like a lot of anti Jewish sentiment among Christians. And I was like, what? How?  Like, where does that come from? Well, you know, the ones that killed Jesus. I was like, how do you…No. Like, because of what you just said about like, well, they’re not all doing the same thing.

[00:16:21] Pastor Kyle: No. Right.

[00:16:21] Pastor Brian: How could you ever come to that conclusion?

[00:16:23] Pastor Kyle: No, I don’t understand that either.

[00:16:24] Pastor Brian: That just baffled me. I was like, I don’t get this at all. What Bible are you reading?

[00:16:27] Pastor Kyle: Yeah. There were some of the Jews who were in power that worked with the Romans in order to kill Jesus. They died at the hands of lawless, Jesus died at the hands of lawless men. That’s what Acts tells us, right? There were evil religious people that came alongside of elders in the community and Roman officials and other people looking away. You know, Pilot basically washes his hands of it. There’s a lot to be said about who killed Jesus. The truth is we all did. Uh, my sin killed Jesus. Um, so and, and also God came first to the Jew, then to the Gentiles. So the pattern was to come and to preach the gospel first to the Jewish people because of the strategic advantage there was to first declaring the gospel to people who had the patriarchs who had the promises, they knew the scriptures, they knew who Messiah was. And then that would then spur on a worldwide movement that would go both to Jew and to Gentile, to people who didn’t have any of those things. And so no, absolutely. Um, yeah any sentiment like that is usually just racism, honestly, is what it amounts to.

[00:17:43] Pastor Brian: Trying to be wrapped in biblical language or something. But yeah, I just it just was so… Most of the disciples were Jewish. What are we talking about? Jesus was Jewish, like all the good guys were also Jewish. What are we talking about? I don’t know, whatever. That’s good. Um, I guess that’s good on my church for not ever letting that be in there or whatever. Um, in any case. So, uh, one of the key parts of this passage, of course, is questions and sincere and insincere questions and all that kind of stuff. But, um, just going back a little bit, I’m curious for you, we actually discussed this in my show community last night. So either when you were a child or when you were a young believer, because I know for you that’s not the exact same thing, but I think you could have it in either of those zones, what were some of your sincere burning questions. Like the, because I feel like most, you know, young Christians have something that they kind of really have to go down the rabbit trail and really be like, okay, what do I think of age of the earth for some people or, um, you know, understanding grace, maybe broadly speaking or whatever. What was it for you?

[00:18:55] Pastor Kyle: Yeah. For me, uh, I did not, I did not realize, I don’t know if I’d call this a struggle, but when I came to faith at 20 years old at Michigan State University as a college student studying journalism, uh, for me, uh, one of the big, uh, sort of ways of thinking about theology that moved me in the direction, and this was actually, uh, maybe a year, year and a half before I became a follower of Jesus was recognizing the historical, uh, facts, the historicity of the biblical narratives of the Gospels. That there are good reasons to believe that these things actually happened. And so I had sincere questions about, uh, the cross, the resurrection.

[00:19:47] Pastor Brian: Right

[00:19:47] Pastor Kyle: Where, you know, do we have reasons to believe that this thing actually happened? Because I’ve just been told these stories. I grew up going to church. That was something that, an evangelical church, one that taught that the Bible was true. I grew up going to those things. It just didn’t matter to me.

[00:20:04] Pastor Brian: And yet, if a buddy of yours was like, hey, our other friend just rose from the dead, you’d be like, no he didn’t.

[00:20:09] Pastor Kyle: Yeah, yeah exactly. Right.

[00:20:10] Pastor Brian: You know? So there’s a natural skepticism built into the resurrection.

[00:20:13] Pastor Kyle: No doubt, no doubt. And we see that from the very beginning of the resurrection. You know, Thomas wants to put his hands in Jesus nail holes in order to believe. And he was one of the disciples. And he was right there, you know, so, yeah, we’re all naturally skeptical in that way. Um, but it never had occurred to me. I actually went to a thing on campus. I was wandering around campus one night and I wandered into… I didn’t even plan to go to this event, but there was an event being held on campus in a chapel where a presenter, uh, there must have been, I don’t know, 50 people in the chapel, but somebody, an apologist of some kind was there presenting reasons why we can believe in the historicity of the Gospels and of the resurrection specifically. And I remember sitting there listening, thinking, I’ve never thought this way before. I have never thought in terms of why would we believe this is a thing that actually happened. I just grew up with Bible stories, and they were sort of detached from history and certainly detached from my life in any sense.

[00:21:18] Pastor Brian: Sure, sure.

[00:21:19] Pastor Kyle: So I didn’t see them as formative to me. I could have explained the gospel to you, but it just didn’t really matter a great deal to me. It certainly had no bearing on my life whatsoever. Um, but it was that night that I started to think in terms of historical truth. And then if this is historically true, if this happened, well, then it has to impact my life. And I started wrestling with that.  Now just, this was after my dad came to faith and before I did. Uh, and I was just starting to wrestle. I remember calling my mom that night and saying, mom, have you ever thought about this? Have you? I just heard this. You know, there’s really good reasons to believe this stuff actually happened, you know? And my mom, you know, just has believed these things all of her life and already knew that. And so it was just like, well, sure, you know. Uh, so, but for me, it was sort of an eye opening experience. And it was part of what led me down the road to faith.

[00:22:14] Pastor Brian: I’m not trying to put words in your mom’s mouth, but I will say as a parent, sometimes my kids will say to me, dad, you’ll never believe what I learned. And then they’ll tell me something. I’ll be like, I’ve told you that four times. But because somebody else said it. You know what I mean?

[00:22:32] Pastor Kyle: Yeah. That’s very possible that that is the case. Yeah.

[00:22:36] Pastor Brian: Anyway, that’s funny, but yeah. Oh man. And I, in heavy air quotes, just a coincidence that you happen to be walking around campus that day.

[00:22:44] Pastor Kyle: Yeah crazy.

[00:22:45] Pastor Brian: I mean, what a providential, interesting little part of your journey there.

[00:22:49] Pastor Kyle: I hear this, I hear these stories about Martin Luther walking around at night, walking home through a rainstorm. And I don’t know if you’ve heard this story before, but part of his faith journey, part of his coming to actual transformative faith in Christ was a lightning bolt hitting and him being scared one night. And it drove him to his knees.

[00:23:09] Pastor Brian: Wow.

[00:23:10] Pastor Kyle: And I think about that.

[00:23:11] Pastor Brian: Hit him?

[00:23:12] Pastor Kyle: Not hit him. No no no no no no. That’d be a very different Martin Luther, wouldn’t it? No. Yeah. Uh, no, but a lightning crashing, uh, drove him into prayer. And it was part of his faith journey. Um, and I think about that, like, what are, where are my lightning moments? That was definitely one of them.

[00:23:31] Pastor Brian: Yeah. Wow. That’s incredible. That’s very interesting. I had big questions about, you could talk about it a few different ways, permanence probably. Like I was really worried. Uh, maybe I’ve told this before, but I’ll be brief. I used to play football in the street with my buddies. And so I was probably like a fourth grader or whatever. And I also had a potty mouth back then. And so I had this, I got like obsessed almost with this idea of, I would like run out, this is so silly, but I would run out for a pass, you know, and be looking back and I’d catch the pass. And then when I turned around, there would be like this big truck that would pop me and run me over and I would die. But right before it hit me, I would say a bad word and therefore sin, and then have no opportunity to repent, and therefore I’d end up in hell. And so I got very obsessed with this idea of like, but what if I don’t have time to repent before I do a bad thing?

[00:24:24] Pastor Kyle: Oh, interesting.

[00:24:25] Pastor Brian: And then I won’t be in heaven because that was my understanding of it.

[00:24:28] Pastor Kyle: Yeah. You have to repent right before…

[00:24:30] Pastor Brian: Yeah. And it was a long time before I got that explained to me. I probably didn’t really ask very good questions or any questions maybe at all at that age, but I just got really scared of that idea. And so that was one I remember kind of wrestling with. And then as my faith grew, um, I really, you know, I mean, it just was, it’s been obviously the topic sort of, of our generation, but homosexuality was a big thing I had a lot of questions about. I don’t mean about my own sexuality. I just mean like, but if people really are born that way, then…

[00:25:01] Pastor Kyle: Yeah, yeah.

[00:25:02] Pastor Brian: what does that mean? Just really having to wrestle with that.

[00:25:05] Pastor Kyle: And you had sincere questions about that.

[00:25:06] Pastor Brian: Sincere questions about it.

[00:25:07] Pastor Kyle: Absolutely

[00:25:08] Pastor Brian: Digging into it I did a, this is actually really funny… My freshman year of college, I was really growing in my faith a lot. And I was asked to, it was like at the beginning we were doing like one big paper throughout the semester and at the beginning of the semester, we were asked to pick a topic and I was like, well, I’m going to do this then. I’m going to look at it scientifically, you know, and look at the research. I can’t write a theological paper, but like, I’m interested for theological reasons, but I’ll have to write it the other way. So I pick and I end up researching that and writing that paper and not knowing that the professor that I was writing it for was a lesbian.

[00:25:45] Pastor Kyle: Oh, no. Okay.

[00:25:48] Pastor Brian: Yeah. And she was gracious.

[00:25:50] Pastor Kyle: Oh that’s good.

[00:25:50] Pastor Brian: And I wasn’t mean spirited about it. I was just really trying to understand it you know

[00:25:54] Pastor Kyle: Wrestling through it.

[00:25:55] Pastor Brian: And so and she was nice about it, but I did not know that she was of that persuasion when I was like, well, I’m gonna talk about homosexuality. And then I’m like, you know, a month into this thing and I’m like, well, I can’t turn back now.

[00:26:07] Pastor Kyle: You’re like, uh, I changed it. Now we’re gonna do which one’s better? Coke or Pepsi? Yeah. Just just just go a different direction.

[00:26:18] Pastor Brian: Go a totally different direction.

[00:26:19] Pastor Kyle: Oh, man.

[00:26:20] Pastor Brian: That was a very interesting experience for me.

[00:26:22] Pastor Kyle: I would say I if you have sincere questions about Christianity. If you have sincere questions about what the Bible says, ask them. Go after them. Don’t hide them. Wrestle with them. The gospel is able to take all comers, right. It’s going to be able to, uh, graciously lead us toward truth. Uh, God’s word exposes truth to us in a way that helps us to understand our world. And so I encourage people to ask sincere questions, but know that they’re sincere. And that’s, that’s the thing. If you see in yourself a motivation to try to just use argument to get the thing you’ve already decided, just understand that you’re being insincere about your pursuit of truth at that point.

[00:27:12] Pastor Brian: And I would also add, I feel like there are a lot of narratives that sound like this: well, the Bible doesn’t talk specifically about that subject anyway. And I’m like, yeah, it probably does though. I mean, it does in one form or another. There’s kind of no part of life that the Bible does not address.

[00:27:29] Pastor Kyle: That’s right.

[00:27:29] Pastor Brian: Obviously, it’s not going to address the internet as directly as other things that existed in the ancient world.

[00:27:36] Pastor Kyle: Yes.

[00:27:37] Pastor Brian: But it certainly addresses the way we should behave on the internet.

[00:27:41] Pastor Kyle: Oh, sure. It addresses lust and anger and loving our neighbors and loving our enemies. And yeah, we got a lot to apply to the way we interact with one another.

[00:27:51] Pastor Brian: So I think there’s, you know, right, we’re living in an age where people can have a platform without the character or experience to support it. They can just have opinions. And so we just need to be careful that just because someone says, well, that’s not in the Bible, that may not be true.

[00:28:08] Pastor Kyle: Right.

[00:28:09] Pastor Brian: In fact, it’s probably not. So just, you know, we should be skeptical of the skeptics.

[00:28:14] Pastor Kyle: Absolutely, we should be. And, uh, and recognize when someone says something like that very dismissively, go, you know, I’ll bet you that’s not a sincere pursuit of the truth. Let’s actually pursue this question. Let’s really dig into this topic and see what the Bible has to say.

[00:28:33] Pastor Brian: So I say this to my kids with some frequency. The easiest thing in the world to be is a critic.

[00:28:39] Pastor Kyle: Mhm.

[00:28:40] Pastor Brian: You know, and so, number one, we need to be careful that we’re not just doing the easy thing ourselves. Right? And just be the critic to be the critic. But also, like, there are a lot of spaces and situations where the person with the most mad opinion, the most, you know, loudest opinion is seen as some form of authority or some form of legitimacy. That may not be the case. You know, it’s become very in vogue to deconstruct publicly.

[00:29:08] Pastor Kyle: You’re right.

[00:29:09] Pastor Brian: Right. I mean, we could name guys that, you know, we read their books 20 years ago and now they’re not walking with the Lord anymore. And it’s like, okay, I understand apostasy is a real thing. Why are you doing this publicly, right? What’s the goal?

[00:29:23] Pastor Kyle: If you got it so wrong, why are we listening now?

[00:29:26] Pastor Brian: Exactly. You know, I hadn’t thought of that. That’s a really great point.

[00:29:29] Pastor Kyle: You know what I mean? If you were so wrong, why would I think you’re right at this point? I’m not sure. Perhaps, uh, you lack, uh, discernment, I don’t know. Let’s yeah, let’s weigh these things out. I would say add to this, uh, now you got me thinking along the lines of social media. It’s really easy to get followers too. So just because somebody has a bunch of followers, that doesn’t mean anything. That doesn’t mean, there’s a lot of people who have a lot of good things to say that don’t have any followers, because they’re just not even out there. Um, but then there’s a lot of people who just make captivating videos and somehow bust into your algorithms a lot because of the way they frame things and they get up with a lot of people clicking and liking and whatever, and end up with a lot of followers. That doesn’t mean you’re looking at a source of truth. Um, in fact, because of the appetites of our community and our society there’s a very good chance that if there’s a ton of followers around this person, um, they aren’t, they’re probably not a great sincere source of truth. Uh, so I don’t know. I can’t say that, uh, completely because I’m not sure all the different people out there, I’m not even really in that world.

[00:30:38] Pastor Brian: But we should be skeptical.

[00:30:39] Pastor Kyle: Very skeptical because you can get a crowd. Getting a crowd today is easy.

[00:30:43] Pastor Brian: Yeah. For sure. Well, um, yeah, I’m trying to decide where I want to go next. Let’s talk about baptism for a minute.

Opportunity of Baptism

[00:30:54] Pastor Kyle: All right.

[00:30:54] Pastor Brian: Before we wrap up here, because it’s in here a little bit. You brought it up in the sermon and, um, we have John the Baptist, John the Baptizer. However, you prefer to say that. As, a part of this, um, so I probably have multiple questions about this and we could probably wrap up this for a few minutes, but why should someone get baptized? That’s probably the first question. And then maybe let’s get into why does the free church practice believer’s baptism?

[00:31:24] Pastor Kyle: Okay, so let me answer your second question first. The EFCA actually doesn’t have a statement on whether someone should do believer’s or infant or credo or pato baptism. Our doctrinal statement is wide enough to allow both. And that’s because there are some people, it all has to do with the way you see the covenant community, the covenant community, the people of God. How do you see that? Well, in the Old Testament, the people of God were the Israelites who were then, they were given a sign of having entered into the covenant community. And that was that on the eighth day, a boy would be circumcised. And the circumcision was the sign of that you’ve been, and you’ve entered into the covenant community. That didn’t match up with your, uh, your faith because faith couldn’t be expressed at eight days old. Right. So you had to wait until the belief matched up, the profession would eventually match up with the covenant blessings being in the community. Fast forwarding to the New Testament. This is very, very brief. Fast forward to the New Testament. You have those today who would say that baptism is the sign of the covenant in the same way that circumcision was under the old covenant. Now it’s just, it’s boys and girls uh, and but, but it’s a, it’s a baptism to show that you’re part of the covenant community. You’re part of the church community and that someday your, the hope would be that your faith would then match up with your identity within the community. Or you end up leaving the community.

[00:32:58] Pastor Kyle: Right. So they would say that it’s not a declaration of your salvation. It is a declaration of your inclusion within the New Covenant. And they make a distinction in that. And some folks who are like that would be, well, the Roman Catholic Church, but also, uh, Presbyterians today, Lutheran churches today, would hold to that. That, they’re not saying baptismal regeneration that, that you become saved at the point of your baptism. There are some groups that believe that. I believe that’s a biblical heresy. Um, but they are saying that there’s an entrance into the covenant community that is different than becoming a follower of Jesus. I would say the reason I believe in believer’s baptism or credo baptism. Baptism by creed, by profession of faith is that, uh, there’s a missing link between circumcision, the sign of the old covenant and baptism, which is the sign of entering into the New covenant. And that’s because one doesn’t point to the other. Uh, circumcision in the Old covenant pointed to circumcision of the heart that would come in the New Covenant. That’s what we’re told, right? The prophets said there will be a circumcision of the heart that will take place. That’s what that physical sign pointed to. And so in the New Covenant is different from the Old Covenant in that in order to enter the promised, blessed community of God’s people today, what has to happen is a circumcision of your heart, or regeneration a transformation of heart that then would correspond to the physical thing that you would do to show everybody, and that’s what baptism is, showing everybody you have entered into the kingdom of God through faith in Jesus Christ. And so that’s where our, uh, I and my, my Presbyterian friends differ on our understanding of baptism. And that’s why we practice, here at Calvary we practice credo baptism. Um, it’s not because the EFCA requires us to do this or limits us in that way, but simply because that is the convictions of our pastors and historically of our church. And so that’s how we do it. I’ve got no, I’ve got no beef with my Presbyterian friends. I love them very much. I studied at Westminster. Uh, so I had, I was in a minority there, Westminster Theological Seminary in Pennsylvania. I was in a minority there as far as, a couple of us Baptists. And then there’s, you know, Baptists, small b Baptists and, um, credo Baptists and then the rest of them were paedo and we had fun discussions. And it’s definitely a second tier sort of, uh, you know, intramural discussion about how the church should be, not a salvation/non salvation issue.

[00:35:37] Pastor Brian: I guess I don’t know this for sure. Do Presbyterians encourage a second baptism or they do not?

[00:35:43] Pastor Kyle: Presbyterians would no, they wouldn’t encourage a second baptism, but they would baptize adults, adult believers to come into the covenant community. So yes, they would they would do that. So as my Presbyterian friends would say, we baptize believers too uh, we just baptize the, um, the children, the infants of believing parents also. So they do, in a sense, they do both. Right? Um, and we just do one because of the way, because of our understanding of what it means to enter into God’s new covenant community. We think that entrance is through faith in Jesus.

[00:36:21] Pastor Brian: And you said this, but just to emphasize the point, we do not believe that baptism is salvific.

[00:36:29] Pastor Kyle: Correct. Oh, yes that’s definitely not.

[00:36:32] Pastor Brian: It is not something that earns one salvation. And there are a lot of people who believe that. I personally know a lot of Lutherans who believe that. I personally know a lot of Catholics who believe that.

[00:36:40] Pastor Kyle: Really?

[00:36:41] Pastor Brian: Yes. So I think that’s pervasive and that can be challenging and it can show up um, a lot of times when someone wants their grandchild to be baptized in the church properly because they’re concerned about their salvation. Which is loving and I do appreciate that. Um, but it is, you know, based on belief, not on how much water or whether or not, you know. Anyway.

[00:37:10] Pastor Kyle: Yeah, I think that actually would be a scary place to be. If I were talking to somebody who wanted their child to be baptized because they believed that was what saved them and they needed that, that paedo baptism, I would say to them, first of all, not even all of the evangelical world that does baptize infants, they’re definitely not saying that. If you understand that’s what they’re doing, you’re misunderstanding.

[00:37:38] Pastor Brian: Covenant church, for example, baptizes babies often, do not believe it’s salvific.

[00:37:44] Pastor Kyle: Absolutely, Yeah. But, um, and so if you do, I think that actually can be more theologically misleading than anything else. I think that that would actually be a misuse of baptism that I would warn against. Um, but yeah, um, I think a right view of even a right… I’ll say it this way. I don’t think, uh, I don’t think paedo baptism is correct. I don’t, I think it gets it wrong. I think it gets the Bible wrong on baptism. Uh, but I also don’t think it’s, um. I don’t think it’s detrimental to one’s faith in Christ, if you understand it from like a PCA Presbyterian perspective. Um, and you just think that there’s a difference between the new covenant community and salvation in Christ. So, um, yeah, that’s, I guess that’s how I’d put it. And you know, it’s impossible to really say what would you say, you know, to everyone in every case, I don’t know, because it’s case by case. It’s usually case by case. What you know, I have to ask the person, what do you believe is happening? What do you think is going on? Uh, oftentimes I will, uh, encourage people who were baptized as babies, usually because they’re in a community that didn’t really teach the gospel very well and they came to faith later in life, I will say be baptized as a believer. I’ll encourage that. Um, but if someone’s really torn by that because of their understanding of the covenant, I would, I would walk more slowly with them.

[00:39:09] Pastor Brian: Yeah. And I would just add too, if you are a believer and you haven’t been baptized, you should.

[00:39:16] Pastor Kyle: Yeah. Oh, absolutely.

[00:39:18] Pastor Brian: I mean not to be overly simplistic about it. You know, I, I actually shifted my own thinking on this. I was a, well, I was actually baptized as an infant. Um, but then I came to saving faith and I was like, well, I was baptized by the Holy Spirit and I don’t need to be. I don’t need to get wet. You know, and then I was like, no, I do.

[00:39:39] Pastor Kyle: Yeah.

[00:39:40] Pastor Brian: Because it says I should.

[00:39:41] Pastor Kyle: Right.

[00:39:41] Pastor Brian: And I think, you know, some people are like, well, but you can’t get into heaven with it. Well, yeah, I mean, you know the thief on the cross didn’t have time to…

[00:39:48] Pastor Kyle:  Right, right.

[00:39:49] Pastor Brian: Agreed.

[00:39:49] Pastor Kyle: Yes.

[00:39:51] Pastor Brian: It’s not the ticket to entry, but it’s a direct imperative.

[00:39:56] Pastor Kyle: Yeah. We should be, because God told us to. Jesus told us to. And it’s a way of declaring the gospel. It’s good for my soul. It is good for the souls of those who are present. It is a declaration of the gospel and we should be declaring the gospel as much as we can. Especially when we’ve been commanded by God.

[00:40:11] Pastor Brian: Exactly.

[00:40:12] Pastor Kyle: To do it. Um, yeah. I myself have been baptized twice, but both in believer’s baptism, if you can believe it. Uh, I was, yeah, like five years old. Kind of, all my friends were getting baptized, that kind of thing in my church. And I did it. And I knew what to say and all that kind of went through. I didn’t become Christian until I was 20 years old. Then I went off to seminary and I went through all of seminary. I got all the way to the end and then realized, wait a minute, I’ve never actually been baptized as a follower of Jesus, and I’m going to be telling people to do just that. And so as a seminary graduate, I’m getting baptized in a church  on the north side of Chicago, uh, along with a couple of other churches that are present and yeah, hundreds of people and that sort of thing. And it, I’m so glad that I did. I want to be able to say I was baptized as a follower of Jesus because my heart’s been transformed. So, um, if I, as a pastor and seminary graduate uh, can do that then.. I, I often tell that story to say, to encourage everybody just get baptized. Just get baptized if you love the Lord and you haven’t been yet.

[00:41:18] Pastor Brian: I had personally baptized dozens of people before I was baptized.

[00:41:22] Pastor Kyle: Oh, that’s… There you go.

[00:41:24] Pastor Brian: And I was like, wait a minute. Anyway, that’s a whole other story, probably for another podcast or something. Anyway, well, Kyle, thanks for your time. It’s probably, we’ve been on for a little while, so we should probably let the people go. So if you’ve hung with us this long, thanks everybody. Thanks for joining us here on the Callback, and we hope this time was an encouragement to you. And whether you’re a part of our Calvary Church family, or if you’re listening from somewhere else in the world, we invite you to join us in our mission to pursue passion for Christ and compassion for people. For Kyle Bushre, I’m Brian Martin. We’ll catch you next time on the Callback.