Calvary-Callback-Possible-with-God.mp3

Pastor Brian Martin: Well. Hey everyone, welcome to the Calvary Callback, a podcast where we take a deeper dive into the weekly sermon at Calvary Evangelical Free Church in Rochester, Minnesota. I’m your host, Brian Martin, and I’m here today with Kyle, who preached this weekend with a sermon titled possible with God. Looking at Luke 18:18-30 in our current series, Salvation has Come. Kyle, how are you this morning?

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Doing great. Brian. How are you, man?

Pastor Brian Martin: Life is beautiful. This is a new thing. We made a podcast.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah, this is totally new for us, isn’t it? This is a little funky adventure for us to see. Uh, see if this is a thing that people want even.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. Uh, so to the four of you who will hear this later, uh, we hope you enjoy it.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Uh, otherwise just us talking in a room by ourselves.

Pastor Brian Martin: Otherwise, it’s just us processing. But, you know, that’s not all bad, either. We can learn some things, right?

Pastor Kyle Bushre: That’s right.

Pastor Brian Martin: That’s because we’re diving in, so. Okay. Um, you have the very, uh, light and easy topic of dealing with wealth in the American church.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: It’s a great way to kick off a podcast, honestly. So.

Pastor Brian Martin: Um, we just, you know, shame culture is really the way we roll at Calvary. Uh, uh, that was a joke for.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Anybody listening, but.

Pastor Brian Martin: Uh, hopefully it’s a joke. It should be. Um, okay, so let’s talk about that because wealth is, I mean, that’s a complex idea, right? So economic models are complex, especially if we kind of look at the whole scope of history. You know, that’s a whole complex system. So when we’re talking about wealth and the wealthy from a biblical definition, and you touched on this a little bit, but what is the biblical definition of rich, as this passage talks about? Like, who falls into that and who doesn’t?

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah. Boy, I don’t know if I can answer that completely because you’re right. The, the difference is in who has what is so vast. And it’s not even just the current situation, it’s throughout history. Yeah. Um, America, of course, being somewhat famous for having created a middle class. So in, in our society, when someone feels like they’re not rich, but they’re doing okay, they don’t, they wouldn’t say I’m struggling because I’m like this rich ruler. They would say, I’m just doing fine. I’m doing well. Now, if you take that same middle class family, compare them to the world, then you go, actually, we’re pretty elite in our wealth. So it’s very, very difficult. I think what you have to do, and I think what the Bible does well, is explain rich and poor more in the more in the vein of do you have enough or do you not? Or do you do you not have enough to get by? Are you sustainable or unsustainable? When I work with the poverty community, generational poverty community for many years as an outreach pastor. Um, It really didn’t help us to use categories of rich and poor. When when we talked about it, we talked about is your household sustainable or is it unsustainable? Are you are you in need of of assistance from outside? Or are you functioning well and able to cover all your bills and that sort of thing? So, um, I don’t know, I’m not sure that we can say for certain, uh, here’s what I can say for certain if we’re going to just draw a line and put rich on one side, poor on the other, we’re going to put most of the United States and certainly most of the American church on the rich side. Right.

Pastor Brian Martin: And I think wouldn’t it be fair to to say like, if you’re not sure, you might as well just assume for the sake of the application of this passage, like you should probably assume if you have money, there are dangers there. Yes. Right. No question. And that’s not a lot different than if you have hands. There’s danger there. You could murder somebody with your hands. You could commit adultery, you know, with your hands. Like there’s all of these things you could do. You can use these tools for good or for evil. And that’s all part of it. So any of us reading this, if we have any money, we should be aware that there is warnings, you know, in this passage.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: And I think it’s also important to say that this is a warning passage about the idolatry of money. It is not a full systematic theology of wealth. Right. Throughout all of the Bible, the Bible has wonderful things to say about money and wealth and how God has given it to us to steward and to use. And, uh, if you like, like I was telling the congregation yesterday, if you, if you just jump down to Luke 19, you’re going to see an entire parable on handling wealth in a way that’s going to create more wealth, but that wealth is going to be used differently than the world would use it.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah, yeah. So with that in mind, um, you know, there was a movement in the last decade, decade and a half that basically suggested if you don’t sell all your possessions and serve the Lord, you know, then you’re not doing it right.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Right.

Pastor Brian Martin: Were they right?

Pastor Kyle Bushre: The only way that movement could be right is if this was Jesus message to every single person he encountered throughout the Gospels. That’s the way I would put it, because Jesus doesn’t say this to everybody. And the reason he doesn’t say this to everybody is because this isn’t the idol that everybody was wrestling with at that time, right? This, this idol stood in the way of this rich ruler’s heart. He couldn’t follow Jesus because this wealth was too important to him. And Jesus made that clear to him by pointing out that in order to follow him, he’d have to let it go. So no, a movement that takes any one passage of scripture and then just sort of uses it a hammer to slam everybody down into a single category of struggle is wrong. And my guess would be, and I’ll be honest, I’ve read some of those guys. I don’t know where all their backgrounds are, but my guess would be that Those those takes on Scripture. These sorts of scriptures are more politically motivated probably than they are biblically motivated. Yeah, it could be. Um, there’s not a lot of nuance when you say everybody must do what this rich young ruler had to do, uh, in order to follow Jesus. That that just isn’t true because it’s not even true of all the people that follow Jesus physically in the first century, right?

Pastor Brian Martin: So it’s interesting, he didn’t ask Matthew to do the same thing, who was a fairly well paid tax collector, right? I mean, correct, among other things.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah. I mean, Joseph of Arimathea puts him in his own tomb. Right? I don’t recall that. I mean, we don’t have a lot of his discipleship journey, but, uh, we know there were people of means that followed Jesus and they used their means for the mission. And that’s really what we need to be doing. This man just wouldn’t do that. And so Jesus had to address him in a way that’s different than those who would be willing to use their means to expand the kingdom of God.

Pastor Brian Martin: Right? And it’s probably a good example of how all ministry is custom. You know, it’s all sort of. I mean, it is and it isn’t. There are universal principles, to be sure. But you know, when we’re shepherding people and we’re thinking about how to help them get from A to B, it’s not one size fits all.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Absolutely. I don’t know necessarily what everybody in their heart is struggling with. That’s why we have to be good shepherds who carefully listen to our people. That’s why you need, you know, you need people who know you and, and can speak into your life and can hear the nuances of the things that you struggle with so that they know how to help you follow Jesus more closely. It’s going to be different for different people.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. And what’s interesting too, about this ruler, I don’t think we’re supposed to see him universally as a villain either. I mean, he at least came to Jesus with a good question. Yeah. And we don’t totally get a resolution about what he did. We know he was sad. And that suggests that maybe he wasn’t willing to do it.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah. The other gospels say that he walked away. Right? So Luke doesn’t talk about him walking away sad. He just mentions his emotion there. But, I mean, could that a guy have turned it around eventually? Sure. Yeah. That’s just not the point of the passage. Right?

Pastor Brian Martin: Right. It’s just to poke us a little bit.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Proud us in the right direction, right? Yeah, yeah.

Pastor Brian Martin: So, um, you know, we talked a little bit about, you know, in the sermon about basically the entry for heaven, right? Yeah. And, um, wanting to be good enough and that whole idea. So why do you think it’s hard to defeat the sort of cultural lie that being a good person, quote unquote, is the entry cost for heaven?

Pastor Kyle Bushre: I think there are a lot of reasons, but the I think if I had to boil it down to a few, I would say I would say, first of all, people just want to think that they’re good enough. People want to think the best of themselves, and they see we’re all. We’re all sort of inclined in our sinful hearts to see ourselves through rose colored glasses and to know our motivations better than other people know our motivations. And so we assign ourselves pretty good motives when it comes to who we are. And when people don’t acknowledge that, sometimes we feel like they don’t understand us because we really are truly good. That’s why we need outside perspectives to, to go to say to us, no, you’re not doing as well as you think you should be. That’s why we need God’s Word to be to act as a mirror. As I, as I mentioned yesterday, uh, so many, so many great pastors throughout history have pointed out that the, that the Bible acts as a mirror and it does. We should see ourselves and see our faults and our failures in it. Uh, but we often don’t if we don’t have other people helping us to see that.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: And nobody wants to be told that they’re not doing very good. Um, but it is clear, uh, as you, as I have looked through history and have looked at it, the other worldviews. It seems to be that the heart of a person that is not transformed by gospel grace has a tendency to think that if there is a God, this God would want me to appease him through my good works. And that’s just that’s just across the board throughout history, all the worldviews of the world. Uh, you know, ask your average American agnostic who, who believes there might be a God but doesn’t really know. Well, what do you think that that God would want in order for you to be in his heaven? He will say something along the lines of be a good person. Right? And I think that is the, uh, that is the false, the false good news, the bad news, I guess you will the, the mal evangelism of, of the day is to tell someone that if they’re just good enough, surely that’s enough for God. Yeah.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. And and what’s ironic about that, too, is one of the reasons why that can’t be the actual thing is that it’s relative. Like what people are really seeing are saying when they’re saying that is like, I’m just doing better than most of the people I know, you know? Yeah. And so then it just really depends on who you surround yourself with. And then it becomes this completely sliding scale that it just doesn’t line up.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: I always like to say, so Jesus set the standard for what goodness should look like in a, in a follower of the Lord, right? So let’s create a spectrum. All right. We got Jesus on one end. Okay. Let’s put I don’t know, let’s just let’s be cliche. We’ll put Hitler at the other end. Okay. Right. So we got Jesus at one. We got Hitler at the other end. Okay, so let’s start building our spectrum. We got Jesus. Who’s next?

Pastor Brian Martin: Right?

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Who are you going to put there? I right everybody’s. Oh, who’s a really, really good person who you can who are you going to put right next to him?

Pastor Brian Martin: You don’t even have good biblical examples there. You know, you could say Moses, I guess like a Jewish person might say Moses. And you’re like, but the murder. You know.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Like. Right. Exactly. Noah built a boat. Yeah, but did you catch what he did right after that? You know, that’s not a good look, right? It’s not a good look. So I, you know, this idea that somehow this goodness spectrum is going to be even helpful for understanding God is, in my mind, ridiculous. I think you’ve got an excellent point there.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah, yeah. And I think it’s one of those things too, where it’s like, we feel like we need to perform for God. We don’t. It needs to go. God loves me, therefore I serve him, not I serve him, therefore he loves me. Exactly right. And, and that’s man, it’s so simple to say and so hard to get, you know, what do they say? It’s the longest distance in the world. Is the distance between your head and your heart.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Right?

Pastor Brian Martin: Yep, yep. And we can know that, but it’s hard to hard to believe it.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Absolutely.

Pastor Brian Martin: So okay, so it is our first podcast and I feel like this is a good time to, to, you know. I mean, I’m sure this won’t be the last time we do this, but.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Okay.

Pastor Brian Martin: In light of that.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: I’m so I’m so stoked for what you’re about to say. I know I’m.

Pastor Brian Martin: Gonna tie you.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Up.

Pastor Brian Martin: Okay, so if being good isn’t the standard. Yes. Who then can be saved? Let’s. I mean, let’s put it out there. Let’s let’s let’s say it.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: If being good isn’t the standard. Well, let’s, let’s let’s back it up. If being good is the standard, nobody can be saved. Yeah. Right. So because what would good look like? Well, as Jesus put it, no one is good except God alone, right? So if no one is good except God alone in that sense, morally, in the moral goodness of the Lord. If you have to achieve that, then nobody, nobody can be saved. And that’s really what the point of the passage was, right? The point of the passage was nobody can save if that’s the standard, if that’s the way of going about things, nobody can be saved in that manner. And the crowd understood that. They said, well, then, then nobody can be saved. Right? And Jesus says, you’re actually half right. If that’s the standard, nobody can be saved. But thankfully that’s not the standard. Thank. Thank the Lord that in his perfect plan, that isn’t the standard by which we would be saved. It is the standard by which we would be damned, right? But it is not the standard by which we would be saved, because there’s no way for us to be the person we would need to be. Jesus had to come and be the person that we need to be. He came and he lived a perfect life. I can’t even imagine that. Can you imagine? I mean, can you imagine that I can’t, I can’t imagine living a perfect day, right? I haven’t had a perfect morning yet.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Okay, I haven’t, and yet here Jesus came and he lived a perfect life. And then he died. Well, what did he die for? If death is is the wages of sin? Is that if that’s what we get for being sinful, then what was his death for? Well, you and I know the Bible is very clear on this. Why? This is why five and a half chapters of Luke is dedicated to Jesus. Last week, leading up to his death and resurrection. We know that he died not for his own sins, but for the sins of those who would trust in him. Of those people, of this, of this rich ruler, if he would have given everything to follow Jesus, he would have been in Christ, right? Right. And so when we talk about the way of life, the way of eternal life, we’re not talking about a way that is paved by our good works. That opens up a door because we have some ticket that we’ve earned through what we’ve created. We have a ticket that was earned for us by Jesus. He went through the door first. And when we trust in him, we get to be through the door into eternal life with him. That’s the grace of Christ.

Pastor Brian Martin: That’s right. Yeah. And that’s that’s the beauty of it is, you know, the pressure to perform in any aspect of life can be crushing. Yeah. You know. Yeah. And, so just realizing, yeah, I don’t need to do that. Yeah. You know, it’s, it’s a change of category. Yes. It is. It goes from sinner to saint. And, and there’s a very huge gap between those two things. And the only thing that changes our category is the work of Jesus.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: And think about the difference in in the mindset, right? Okay, so so God, so what’s the difference here? The rich ruler had to give up his, his idol, his God, the thing he wanted the most. And it was, it made him sad to follow Jesus. It made him sad because he had to give this thing up that he loves more than the Lord himself in order to have the eternal life he wants. But if you give your life to Jesus and you recognize that all the stuff you have is his, and all your life is his, and every breath you take is his, and it all belongs to him. Your heart is transformed and now you want to give. You want the stuff that God has given you to be the thing that you used to worship him. And it’s a joy. It’s not sadness. It turns that sadness into joy. Yeah. And, that’s the hard thing, I think, to convince the non-believer of. I think they’re fully convinced that no, it’s still sadness on the other side, and I don’t know how to explain to them. It’s, uh, you know, as C.S. Lewis said, you know, people struggle, uh, in making their mud pies. I’m going to get this paraphrase completely wrong, but they make their mud pies thinking that’s what the world is like because they’ve never had a vacation by the sea, right? They don’t understand how much joy there is in giving your all for the Lord, and giving your all for the Lord, and turning all the stuff that he gives us back into worship. Worship is joyous for the Christian, and that’s what they’re missing out on.

Pastor Brian Martin: My wife has a wise saying. She says success is being wherever Jesus is.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah. That’s great.

Pastor Brian Martin: Right? I mean, that’s the exact idea. So good. Well, last question for today.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: All right.

Pastor Brian Martin: It’s always weird to quote somebody back to themselves.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Okay.

Pastor Brian Martin: Do it anyway.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: All right.

Pastor Brian Martin: So you said something that caught my attention, um, in the sermon, you said you were sort of speaking to skeptics and you said you like his ethics, Jesus’s ethics, but not his answers. Yeah, expand on that. What does that mean?

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Okay. Well, if your standard is goodness, right, the standard is goodness. And that’s that’s what you think earns your way. Then you like his ethics because it seems like if you just pull his ideas out and by the way, only some of his ideas.

Pastor Brian Martin: Right? It’s the buffet option.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: If you pick and choose your way through Jesus ideas, you can cobble together a kind of ethic that you sort of like.

Pastor Brian Martin: Love your neighbor.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Uh, if you’re really into, uh, justice in the world, you know, what did he have to say about the poor and the marginalized and all those things? Beautiful things. Love, love those things. And those things need to be talked about. We need, we need to we need to have a better understanding of those things, no doubt. Right, right. But if you if you pick and choose the ethics that Jesus teaches, then you’re going to really like Jesus ethics. His, highly edited ethics. You’re going to like those. But then when you ask the questions like, well, what must I do to have eternal life? What must my life? How should I now live? As Francis Schaeffer would say, how do I now? How do I now live for the Lord? Well, Jesus says things like deny yourself and take up a cross. It’s going to be a sacrifice for me, right? It’s going to be hard for me. Jesus said, in this world, you’re going to have trouble. But take heart. I’ve overcome the world. You’re in Christ, so you’ll overcome the world too. But you’re going to have trouble. I don’t have trouble.

Pastor Brian Martin: Right?

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Why can’t we just be good to one another? Right? That’s what I mean. You like some of his ethics, but you don’t like his big answers. You like a partial world view, but you don’t like the full biblical worldview. And I think it’s important my encouragement to a skeptic, to a person who sort of picks and chooses their way through the Bible is that you’re missing out. You’re missing out on the true joy and blessings of a full understanding of who Jesus is and what it means to walk with him.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: And, and frankly, I would, I would go, so I’d go step further. Our world is missing out on this. Our world is missing out on it because in some ways it is being presented with a partial Christ. And I think that the most important thing we can do is give the fullness of Christ to everyone, uh, and invite them into it, invite them into a Jesus who will take them in directions they never thought they would go. Yeah. And call them to a life of self-sacrifice and service and love and selflessness. Uh, instead of selfishness and see the transformation of the gospel in their heart, in their community. It’s a beautiful thing, but you’re missing out on it if you have just a few of Jesus. Uh, more more popular ethics going on in your life.

Pastor Brian Martin: Right. Yeah. The fullness of who Jesus is is who he is. And if we do any less than that, then we’re maybe a fan, but we’re not a follower. Correct? Right.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah. So great way to put that.

Pastor Brian Martin: Well, hey, that’s, uh, that’s that’s pretty fun for a first go.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: I think so.

Pastor Brian Martin: I think.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: I could do this.

Pastor Brian Martin: I think, I think we could do this. Yeah, man. Sounds like fun. Well, uh, for anybody, uh, thanks for tuning in. We’re gonna hit our outro now. Here we go.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Oh, isn’t that beautiful?

Pastor Brian Martin: There it is. Thanks for joining us on the Calvary callback. We hope this time was an encouragement to you and whether you’re a part of our Calvary family or if you’re listening from somewhere else in the world, we invite you to join us in our mission to pursue passion for Christ and compassion for people. For Kyle, I’m Brian Martin. We’ll catch you next time on the Calvary Callback.