Pastor Brian Martin: Hey everyone, welcome to the Cavalry Callback, a podcast where we take a deeper dive into the weekly sermon at Calvary Evangelical Free Church in Rochester, Minnesota. I’m your host, Brian Martin. I’m here today with Kyle Bushre, who preached a sermon titled Loving Our Brother, looking at 1 John 2: 7-11.  All right. Kyle, Good morning.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: How are you? Good morning. Yeah, I’m doing good. A little a little tired. Uh, I watched my sports teams a little too long yesterday because my Pistons and my Tigers are going. So yeah, I’m…yeah.

Pastor Brian Martin: I gotta tell you, I was, um, we were watching a little bit of the Pistons game. Not last night, but the game six or whatever, and I was telling my boys… Like one of them said their logo is really boring. I was like, you should have seen it in the early 2000’s. And I showed them, like the Grant Hill, you know, with the green. And I love that look.

Pastor Kyle Bushre:  No, no. I like the classic.

Pastor Brian Martin: I don’t dislike what they have now, but I thought that was a fun alternative.  Okay. So much spiritual content.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Um, yeah. Yeah. People love that.

Pastor Brian Martin: All right, so before we jump into the sermon, I actually wanted to ask for your input on something, um, really interesting that happened on Sunday. So I was ushering communion. And, um, you know, we’re passing the plates and whatever. And I had a young man, um, who I’d never seen before… He’s probably about 20 years old or so. And, um,  he kind of stopped me when I was handing him the plate and he said, what am I supposed to say before I take communion?

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Oh that’s interesting.

Pastor Brian Martin: It was really interesting. It was really genuine. He, I think the sense was like he wanted to do it right. And, and so I only had a few seconds to answer him. But I’m curious, like just for our church, and the people who are listening, how would you advise somebody to approach that time of communion? Like, what would you advise people to pray or reflect on or think about as they’re preparing their hearts and minds in that time of quiet as they’re preparing for communion?

Pastor Kyle Bushre: That is a fantastic question. Uh, so I would say that probably the thing that you would want to do, what I do, and what I think all people should do when approaching the table is we need to remember two things. One, we need to remember the sins for which Christ died. And we need to remember that Christ died for our sins. So there’s a confession of sin, and then there’s a rejoicing in what Jesus has done for us, because that is what it means to remember his death until he comes. We remember not just that he died. We remember what his death means for us. Communion is an invitation into that, uh, into that process of salvation. It’s a remembering, communing with the Lord who did this for us. And so I think those two parts, if that young man had asked me real quick, what do I say before I do this, I would have just leaned down and said. I mean, I don’t know if I would have said it exactly like this. I get more time to think about it than you even had to.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: But I think I would’ve said something like, just pray and thank the Lord for what he did for your sins. And that’s probably how I would have said it in that little tiny space because, um, that calls to mind both things.

Pastor Brian Martin: Mhm.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Jesus did this and he did this for me, and he did this for me because of my sins. So I spend that time usually in confession, thinking over the last month, because we do it monthly here. Thinking over the last month. Usually the things in the last week are the things that come to mind most. Um, and, uh, just laying before the Lord, you know,  in detail, even sometimes in my mind, Um, the things that I’m struggling with, the ways that I know I’ve dishonored the Lord and then thanking him, just thanking the Lord. Just so thankful that he would invite me to this table. The fact that I’m sitting at this, this communion table, in a sense, with him and able to fully trust and participate in meeting.  I’m eating the bread and the cup. We all are in the same way, that the family would gather around the one lamb that was slaughtered, and they would eat it in the home while they put the blood over the door and the pass. There would be this angel of death passes over this house, right? And so I’m participating when I eat. The eating matters because I’m saying, I’m in this, this was for me, which is why only believers should participate in communion. So I think that’s really where your mind should go. I think you should go on to your sins, but not just this beating yourself up thing. Not just oh woe is me, but a, And I love what you have done for me God. And that’s why I eat.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. Absolutely. And I just want to be clear, if this young man ever listens to this, what an excellent question. I mean, I so appreciated, you know, a good question like that, even in a service. Like that showed some courage you know, for one, but also just a thoughtfulness that I really appreciated and thought was excellent. And yeah, I ended up saying something very similar. I just said, because I only had a few seconds because the plate was coming, you know, the other way. And I just said, you know, uh, I take this time to pray. I ask God for his forgiveness and I thank him for it.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah. There you go. That’s exactly right.

Pastor Brian Martin: That’s basically how I answered it.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: And the fact that this guy, this young guy knew that this mattered.

Pastor Brian Martin: I know.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Like, he’s not just, oh look a little cube of bread. I’ll grab the bread and I’ll just take it because that’s what everybody around me is doing. No, the fact that he knew there should be thoughtfulness is great.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah, absolutely. So I hope I get to meet him again and talk with him more. Um, all right. Well, with that, let’s look at the sermon a little bit here as well. Um, I wanted to go to verse 9, um, which, you know, you explicated at length, but it says, um, “whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness”. Um, so I was reminded when we were discussing that bit in the sermon, um… Have you read Paul Tripp’s book Dangerous Calling?

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yes. Yeah, it’s been a while.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah, I read it during during seminary and it was really interesting. Um, and really a good, I mean, just really a good book. But in it, he talks about the idea of the difference between spiritual blindness and physical blindness. And what he was saying was like, um, the difference between physical blindness and spiritual blindness…. Goodness, that’s a hard word to say for some reason today…is that people who are physically blind know that they’re blind. But a lot of times, people who are spiritually blind don’t know that they’re blind.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, if you’re spiritually blind, you don’t know it because you think you’re fine wherever you are. Right?

Pastor Brian Martin: Exactly.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Like no one’s going…If your soul is burdened and you’re… Then, then the Lord is doing something bringing you into the light. But most people aren’t there. If they’re in darkness they don’t walk around going, I’m in darkness.

Pastor Brian Martin: Right, right. So I think there’s kind of layers to this, right? There’s the… you’re commenting on, and I agree with the, um, the blindness of being outside of the family of God, of being an unbeliever. But I think there’s also a layer of spiritual blindness for the believer. Or there can be in the sense that we’re not always aware of our own sin fully. Right?  So my question is, what do you think we can do as believers, to reduce our spiritual blindness to our own blindness, as it were? Our blindness to our blindness?

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Well, yeah. And again, I think we… I definitely want to clarify in answering this question, John is talking about non-believers here. He’s saying that…

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah, that’s a good…

Pastor Kyle Bushre: …a walking in darkness, right, a continued journey…

Pastor Brian Martin: Not a moment of shadow…

Pastor Kyle Bushre: …Not a moment of shadow, right… So what you’re describing really is a stumble. You know, like, uh, I’m a believer, I love the Lord, I’m stumbling and, and maybe I’m just not aware. I’m blind to something I’m doing and I’m not even aware of the effects of it. I haven’t yet felt the conviction of it. And so I do think there can be, you know, a besetting sin as the, you know, as uh people have put it, um, that sort of sticks in you and you’re somewhat unaware because usually you’re unaware because you don’t know how it’s affecting other people. You know, if you’re snagged in some sort of a sin that’s obvious to you, that’s different than if you’re caught in a sin that you’re not even quite sure, you’re not really aware of how it’s impacting other people. And I would say that would be the answer. The answer is the church community. The answer to your question is, do I have the humility to be able to receive from my fellow Christians around me instruction for ways I don’t, I’m not seeing myself properly. Decisions I’m making that are hurting other people that I’m, maybe I’m not aware of, maybe I don’t care about as much as I should. Um, you know, that is, that’s the church. The answer is the church. Because if you’re not seeing it, you’re probably not feeling a great deal of conviction over it, even if you should be.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Somebody comes up to you and says, you know, the way you talk to your wife is disrespectful, and a believer goes, well, I don’t think it is. You go, well, you don’t know how you’re coming off, you know, do you understand how you come off? Do you do you realize the rudeness of that? Do you see your wife’s flinch when you say these things about her?  Um, you know, and and that kind of a sin can be exposed if you have a good Christian community around you that you’re willing to listen to. Now, that’s, that’s the other side of it, right? That you don’t become this defensive guy or girl who says, I’ve got all these excuses and reasons why what I’m doing is not what you think I’m doing, or that I’m not caught in the sin that you think I’m in. Um, that actually is a way of pushing away a gift. You got this gift of a church who’s willing, someone in your life who’s willing, to say a hard thing to you and you dismiss it, uh, then…. And you proceed… Now we’re starting actually to get into what John might be talking about here. You’re blowing through the stop signs or the help signs. You’re not, you know, and you’re just going to perpetually walk in this thing that other people are telling you is a sin and an unexamined part of your life. Maybe you don’t know the gospel as well as you should.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Maybe you don’t know Jesus at all. Now, I’m not saying that, but a… the idea… The problem is a walk in darkness. And if you’re going to continue to walk in darkness as people, multiple people in your life are pointing out this has got to change, that should be an indication to you that maybe you’re not spiritually where you ought to be.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. So, and I think too, I would add, like with our Midwestern sensibilities, it’s a really good habit to ask, right? Because I think a lot of us feel like, you know, there’s a difference between me saying, Kyle, this is what’s wrong with you. And you saying, Brian, what do you see that I could be working on? Like, those things feel very, very different. So I do think it’s a good practice. You know, like even to use your example, like, hey, what’s it like to be on the other side of me or whatever? Like, what is what are you, what are you seeing that, you know, I should be working on? And I just think that’s smart. Um, I do that with my premarital counseling. I, I ask couples to, like, I give them a interview question, go talk to other couples about this. And then after they do it, I’m like, hey, here’s why we do this, is because asking for advice is a really good habit in marriage, right? So even after you’re married, of course, you know, like, hey, how could I be doing this better? Or how could it… And seeking it out, I think makes it feel less combative, which, you know, a lot of us don’t love conflict, right? So, um, but asking for it’s different.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: I think it’s an incredibly important thing to remember. No matter how long you’ve been following Jesus, you are not this finished piece of artwork under museum glass having arrived where you are. So the assumption that you have sin in your life that still needs to be worked out and weeded out, and embracing that, knowing that, gives you the permission, I guess, gives yourself the courage to ask, like you’re saying.  I don’t probably ask that as much as I should. Uh, and seek that out as much as I should. Um, but you’re right. It’s an excellent practice. If you will practice.

Yeah. Well, maybe getting a little closer to your point, I think was a really good differentiation between believers and unbelievers in, in this passage. So let’s, let’s get a little closer maybe to what, you know, was being written about here in 1 John. So, let’s say we know someone we love who’s in the darkness. What’s the best way to pray for that person, you know? Um, because ultimately we know the Holy Spirit needs to work in their life. But, but how do we direct our prayers?

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Wow. There’s so many things, so many ways you can pray for a person who’s in darkness in your life. You can pray. The first thing we should… the first thing we ought to pray for is that God would change their heart. That’s the only way their heart will be changed. So we cry out to … We serve as an ambassador on behalf of the people we love. We are Moses appealing for Lot and his wife in the city. God, please bring them out. Um, we are calling on the Lord to do his work. Uh, and it’s because we’re told to, Right? It’s ultimately up to God what he’s going to do in the heart of that person. But we are called to pray for their souls and to ask the Lord to bring light into the darkness, because only he can, only his spirit can do that. I do think it’s also important that we pray for opportunities to be part of the process. We say God…

Pastor Brian Martin: That’s good.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: … change the heart, but also don’t … Give me an opportunity to say something. Show me how I can be a good example, uh you know, in front of this person, of who you are, to bring to, to display light from my life, also to speak truth into the darkness. Uh, show me how I can do that in a way that brings this person along and doesn’t push them away. Um, if you just, if you just go to somebody, uh, because you’re in a position of knowing the gospel and you just bring strong judgment against everything they do, remember who you’re talking to. You’re talking to someone who’s blind but doesn’t know it. Right?  So there may be a time when you’re going to, you’re going to want to point out what’s going on in their life so that you can get them to the gospel, not just so that you can bring condemnation on their behavior, not just to say, I don’t like this.  We got a lot of people who don’t like things. That’s not who we, we’re not here to represent our own likes and dislikes. We’re here to represent Christ. And so the bridge that we’re building is one of the Gospel. So we pray for that person, we say God, help me to find the way to build the bridge to help this person over it. Um, and do so in a gracious and loving way, in a way that Jesus would do this.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: We often picture Jesus… We have to remember that Jesus… Jesus’ harsh words were for religious elite. They were for the people who knew the law. His gentleness was for sinners. He loved them. He saw them like sheep without a shepherd. So he had a gentleness for people who were truly lost. And he wants to bring them along. Yes, you will have to say a hard thing at some point. Yes, you will have to confront sin. There will be a moment, probably, when walking with somebody in the dark, in their darkness, that you’re going to have to point out what sin is. But to do so in a gentle way, to do so in a way that is where I admit that I too struggle with sins, right, so I’m a fellow traveler, not some sort of judge, is incredibly important. All that, when you say, how do I pray for this person, all of that. Pray for yourself in this. Pray that you pray for, pray for your own willingness to be vulnerable. Uh, also, we’re told to pray that we don’t fall into temptation as we do these things, as we engage with people in darkness. We don’t, we don’t ourselves, find ourselves acting in ways, in sinful ways, because we’re so close to those who are acting in sinful ways.  So lots of different ways to pray.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. And it can be hard. Yeah I mean, just even your own emotional state, and to your point, like the point of the understanding of the gospel is not behavior modification. You know, we could say, oh, this person is hurting me in this way. You know, their actions hurt me in this way or whatever, or even you’re praying for your child. And I’m like, I just want my child to behave better or whatever, right? And it’s like, yes, a transformed heart transforms behavior. Like, yeah, it’s there, but it can’t be the point. If that’s the point, then we’ve already missed the point, as it were.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: So that’s a great point.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. Um, so verse 10, um, you know, so I’ll read, I’ll read that one to you just to remind us. So, so moving on to verse 10 from verse 9, “whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling”. Okay. So your commentary on this was close to this. I think I got most of the quote. John does not say whoever says, No, he says whoever loves. Words aren’t the first evidence of where you’re at spiritually, actions are, okay. So totally agree. Um, and this question is not… I know you know the right answer to this question. It’s not assuming you were wrong. Okay? It could sound that way. Why isn’t this workspace righteousness?

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Why isn’t this workspace righteousness? Uh, because what we’re talking about here…Workspace righteousness would be I perform, I do, therefore God loves me, therefore God accepts me. He gives me salvation. Eternal life is based on my performance and I earn that through the things that I do. So my works lead to righteousness, works based righteousness, right? We’re not talking about that at all. John is not talking about that here. What he’s trying to do, and I think does beautifully is get us to ask, uh, to work our way from outside in. Right? So works based righteousness would be I perform to get something. He’s saying, no, look at what you’re doing so you understand your own heart.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: And so, He says, you’re abiding in the light if you love your brother, right? You, that’s how you know, you know that you have Jesus. You know you have Christ if you love your brother. Now, if I said, if I love my brother, I get to have light, that would be workspace righteousness.

Pastor Brian Martin: Right.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: But he’s not saying that. He’s saying, here’s how you know, here’s how you know what position you’re in; Love is what’s coming out of you, right? It’s emanating from you. It’s, it’s gospel shaped, gracious love for people here in this passage, particularly the church. I would argue that, that would be, it’s applied across the board to all people. Uh, the way that Jesus describes our love for enemies and everyone, uh, if that, if your posture is to love and your actions are to love the way Jesus loved, that’s an indication, that is evidence, right? It doesn’t earn anything. It’s evidence of what is true about you and that that what’s true about you, according to verse 10, is that you abide in Christ. You’re connected to, you remain spiritually connected to Christ. Uh, and so I don’t tell anybody to trust in your works because if you hear that, if you hear the phrase trust in your works, you’re going to, you’re going to think, well, okay, I, I trust that God loves me because of my works. No, no, the works are not to be trusted. Christ is to be trusted, and I know I have Christ if I see Christ coming out of me.  It just puts the, uh, it’s the fruit that comes out of the healthy tree, right? That’s what it is. And that’s the beauty of good works that are done to glorify Christ is that they reaffirm that the Holy Spirit is with me, in me, working through me, and in that sense, the Holy Spirit acts as a down payment, as Paul puts it in Ephesians. He’s the down payment of the eternity I know I now have because I can see it at work in me.

Pastor Brian Martin: What’s fascinating is, my works will save me… and we may have talked about this a few weeks back but… my works will save me, is actually Islam. That’s, you know, which is so interesting that…anyway…

Pastor Kyle Bushre: There’s almost all the other, well all the other religions of the world say, here’s a list of things you ought to do, you must do, in order to achieve whatever it is that you’re trying to achieve.

Pastor Brian Martin: Nirvana or whatever.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah. Whatever. Whatever path you’re on. And only Christianity says, no, God has to do all the work in you first. And then you’ll know he’s done all the work in you because you’re going to be declaring his glory. You’re going to be working. There’s going to be a love pouring out of you that you didn’t have before. You’re going to desire for other people to know Jesus because he’s so good to you. There’s just going to be a change in you, and that’s how you’ll know you have it.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. Good stuff. Um, all right, so my next question is this, um, we saw some emotion from you this weekend, which is, which is good. I mean, I appreciated it. Um, talking about public discourse and the fact that culture has created this situation where hatefulness is a virtue, which I thought was really well said. Um, and then also just this idea that, you know, it’s not just like a worldly thing. It’s crept into our churches, you know, generally. Um, and so I think my, my question to follow up on that, well first, if you want to expand on that at all, just in this different format and talk about why that led to some emotional commentary from you.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: I mean, yeah, it’s emotional to me because of how devastating it is to people in the church. I’m just I’m very passionate about the fact that the church ought to be a city on a hill. It ought to be salt and light. Uh, it has to be a contrast against the darkness of our world. And as soon as the world starts to creep into the community of the church, we lose all that. We lose that. We lose…

Pastor Brian Martin: Uh, and that’s easier to happen than I think I used to think it was.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Oh, yeah.

Pastor Brian Martin: For for any church, but also any individual, like, we can get sucked into that so easily if we’re not careful. We just have to be really aware.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah. I was just talking actually to some, some elders about this, uh, the inputs in our lives, there are so many more inputs now. There are so many more ways that different messages and things get into our lives. I can’t pump gas without, uh, a video, uh, with, with advertisements coming at me. And everybody hates it so much that some of those wonderful angels who own gas stations put a mute button out there for us to be able to stop the ads that they themselves sold. I don’t know how they’re allowed to do that, but, uh, we have so many inputs coming into our lives right now. And a lot of it, a lot of it is hate speech and it’s degrading. And again, it’s not hate speech in the way that you know, official bad, uh, you know, putting down of people in a way that has been marked legally as hate speech. I’m just saying people are so mean, callous. They want to see people crumble. They want to see movements die and fail and people, the people in them. I don’t mean just the ideas, I mean the people. They want destruction for the people.

Pastor Brian Martin: And they feel good about deeply disliking other people.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Absolutely.

Pastor Brian Martin: And it’s just not the way of Christ.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: And there’s a lot of people that are like, yeah, we’re finally saying it like it is. We’re finally, we’re finally telling the truth. No, what we’re doing is we’re hating people. And this is anti-Christ. This is against everything that Jesus told us to be. We are to speak truth. That is true. We speak truth in love though. We want to share the gospel. We are gospel people. And we love, and we’re people people. We have to be. That’s what the gospel is for. It is ultimately for the glory of God. It is ultimately that God would be most glorified, but that we would be satisfied in glorifying him. And so he, his gospel is a way for us to be in that right relationship with him. So we want other people to be, to have that. I want every person I know to have that. I can’t hate them. And yet here we have so much of this rhetoric and way of treating people and people groups now, not just individuals, but the way people talk about groups of people is incredibly disgusting to me. And it’s, I guess the reason for the emotion is it saddens me. It angers me and saddens me that it, that I sometimes hear that coming out of the mouths of people who should know better because they know Jesus. And that’s not to say that we’re always going to be perfect, but a lot of it’s becoming acceptable and it’s being defended.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: And that I can’t stand for.

Pastor Brian Martin: What’s interesting is it would be really, at this point, it’s very countercultural to treat people with kindness and respect. And that’s kind of, you know, so any of us who have sort of a rebel tendency in us or whatever, like it’s funny how it’s kind of flipped on its head. I feel, um, differently than when I was younger. Maybe I just wasn’t aware, but I don’t know. I think the cultural waves are going a different direction. Like to actually radically be kind and loving to others is not normal.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: No, no it’s not now. It’s…we should be able to, in that respect, the church should be even more stark. It should be very strange for this group of people, these evangelical Christians, to not engage in that way, but to actually speak kindly when…  about people we disagree with, even if you disagree, even if you think this isn’t the best way forward.  Or even if, and here’s the thought, even if you agree, and your group…Or you agree with what’s happening, but you refuse… And maybe even call out how people who agree with you speak about these things, and you’re self-critical in that sense, or in a corrective way you’re critical of the people who agree with you on whatever topic it is that you’re looking at but you don’t agree with how they’re doing it, and you say something, and you become a change agent for your own team in that sense; we’re being discouraged against that.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: You’re not really of us if you, if you do that, Right? That’s because the hate goes along with the viewpoints now.  The vitriol goes along with the politics and the ideologies, and it’s part of it. And it saddens me. And it just shouldn’t be the case in the church.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. I think there’s such importance in Imago Dei theology.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Oh, my. Yes.

Pastor Brian Martin: Right? Like, that every person has value. And I think whenever as Christians, we enter the public discourse, it has to start there. I mean, I don’t know if it starts there, but it’s a foundational truth of every person, whether we’re interacting through a screen or in person or whatever it is. If there’s a person on the other end of it, they have value.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yes they do, yes they do. They were… The only difference between me and a person who is the opposite of me in every way, is that Christ, by his grace, has transformed me. I didn’t do any of that. I participate in it now that God has done something in me. But it’s entirely by grace. How could I look at another person and have any judgment toward them for any reason? How could I do that without first remembering that I am a sinner, saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone?  I didn’t earn this. Um. I didn’t put myself into the light. And so, you got to see people for who they are: deeply flawed, very, very sinful, made in the image of God, incredibly high value. The gospel is the answer. Of course, that’s going to make us gracious.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Should make us incredibly kind to people.

Pastor Brian Martin: And it doesn’t mean we can’t stand on truth or conviction. We can do both things simultaneously.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: That’s right, that’s right. We have to.

Pastor Brian Martin: We have to. Yeah. It’s our only choice. Well, that’s all the time we have for this episode. So Kyle, I thank you. And to everybody else, thanks for joining us on the Calvary Callback. We hope this time was an encouragement to you and whether you are a part of our Calvary family, or if you’re listening from somewhere else in the world, we invite you to join us in our mission to pursue passion for Christ and compassion for people. For Kyle Bushre, I’m Brian Martin, We’ll catch you next time on the Calvary Callback.