Pastor Brian Martin: Hey everyone, and welcome to the Calvary Callback, a podcast where we take a deeper dive into the weekly sermon at Calvary Evangelical Free Church in Rochester, Minnesota. I’m your host, Brian Martin, and I’m here today with Jason O’Grady, who preached a sermon titled Love Embodied looking at 1 John 4: 7-12. Reverend, doctor, Father, Jason O’Grady here with us today. Is it your official title?

Jason O’Grady: I don’t know.

Pastor Brian Martin: I don’t know either. Yeah yeah, yeah.  Oh man.

Jason O’Grady: I mean, the one I’m most called, I’m called dad most often.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah, I suppose that’s, that is the title.

Jason O’Grady: Although the residents call me doctor OG, which I thought was really funny.

Pastor Brian Martin: Oh, I like that. The OG OG, right? Oh, man, I like that a lot. Well that’s great. So, okay, I happen to know a little bit of your story that you are, of course, medically trained. A lot of people in our community would know that you are an MD, but that you’re also biblically trained. Tell us that story.

Jason O’Grady: Oh that’s great.

Pastor Brian Martin: You’ve got these two branches of training. Tell me more.

Jason O’Grady: Yeah. I mean, my first love was mission work. And I was really blessed when I was growing up to have a church that loved missions. Went on my first mission trip when I was seventh grade. And then they also were really pouring into me as far as preaching. And so I even did my first preaching at age 12.

Speaker 3: Really?

Jason O’Grady: Yeah. They would have a youth Sunday and I would preach.

Pastor Brian Martin: Fantastic.

Jason O’Grady: Awesome. So they continued to train me that way, but then I, I also fell in love with science. And so it was, well, how can I bring those two together. And that’s when then I branched to do the medical stuff. But prior to that, you know, at my home church, I was actually children’s minister for many summers while I was in college. And then actually during medical school, I came on staff and was ordained at that time. Through college I actually did a double major in molecular biology and Christian ministries.

Pastor Brian Martin: As most people do.

Jason O’Grady: Well, because they dovetailed really nicely, you know?

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. Well, in some ways they do, I suppose.

Jason O’Grady: Exactly.

Pastor Brian Martin: Right, Yeah.

Jason O’Grady: So that’s where the biblical training came from. Um, and then I did that all the way through. Uh, third year of medical school, I had to step away from the ministry just because our rotations were I didn’t have any extra time essentially. Um, but what I really love is medical missions and had been involved in that a lot. When I first started medical missions uh, that was my junior year of college actually. Um, so I, you know, I didn’t have any true medical training, but was going with medical teams. Uh, and I just fell in love with it to be able to meet people, their physical needs and then say, you know, I’m leaving in a week, but I can introduce you to somebody that’s going to be here all the time.

Pastor Brian Martin: Right.

Jason O’Grady: Which is fantastic. But what I do now more for medical missions is teaching those that are local, because I feel like they actually have a better avenue. And the local church is better than my, you know, Americanized coming in and doing it that way. So I just basically try to keep medical folks up to date with everything. And my most recent trips were to Russia actually before this war happened, because they, family medicine just started after the USSR fell.

Pastor Brian Martin: Gotcha.

Jason O’Grady: So they had a lot of questions about how we do family medicine.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah.

Jason O’Grady: ..In America.

Pastor Brian Martin: Interesting. So you’re going in and training doctors and nurses and such.

Jason O’Grady: Exactly.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. Wow.

Jason O’Grady: And then that’s a way that you can get in because although the Lord is moving in, in Russia and other places, it’s not very open, I would say to Christianity, right. But since you’re there, then you’re going to be able to talk about Christ and why you do what you do.

Pastor Brian Martin: That’s fascinating. Yeah. So cool. I love that part of your story is being a children’s minister.

Jason O’Grady: Yes

Pastor Brian Martin: You know, I’ve said before, I think, if you don’t know how to explain a complex theological topic to a third grader, you don’t really understand it yet.

Jason O’Grady: Right. I mean, you got to know it.

Pastor Brian Martin: You have to know it to be able to boil it down and not accidentally commit heresy, you know? But using language that, um, so, you know, it’s… I like that I can say this now as somebody who’s not recruiting for kids ministry all the time, you know what I mean? Like, you know, because I’ve worn that hat too. But, you know, just on the other side of it, for our adult, the adults of our church, like you need to be teaching the scriptures to other people, and especially children for your benefit, for your growth. It’s such a big part of it. And children is a wonderful place to do that, partially because, you know, they’re a very forgiving audience, you know.

Jason O’Grady: And they’ll love you anyway.

Pastor Brian Martin: And they’ll love you anyway. Yep. And, uh, but, but also because there’s a big need. I mean, there always is, right?

Jason O’Grady: And I mean, it was commanded, the Lord did say, let the little children come to me.

Pastor Brian Martin: Also that. Yeah.

Pastor Brian Martin: Absolutely. Yeah. So that’s very interesting. That’s very interesting. So locally, family medicine is what you do. And so you bring that nationally and and share. That’s that’s really cool. So have you seen, I mean, maybe I don’t, I don’t know what you know about this, but have you seen structures of family medicine being created in Russia at this point? There is progress?

Jason O’Grady: Yes, there’s great progress there. I mean, it’s not as robust as sub-Saharan Africa where family medicine is just exploding.

Pastor Brian Martin: Interesting.

Jason O’Grady: But yes, it’s it’s starting to build there, which is really nice.

Pastor Brian Martin: Very cool, very cool. So, okay, let’s talk about your sermon, of course, really centered around the topic of love, which this whole book is.

Jason O’Grady: I might have said it a couple times.

Pastor Brian Martin: You might have said it a couple times, and you even pointed out how many times it gets said in this book. And it’s obviously a key theme, and yet one that that bears a lot of repetition, doesn’t it? Because it’s so central and important to who we are as Christians and who Christ is to us and all of those things. So how would you define love?

Jason O’Grady: That’s a great question.

Pastor Brian Martin: It’s not a small question.

Jason O’Grady: No. And when I first I have to be honest with you, when I first think about how to define love, I’m I’m, I think I go to what it isn’t because it contrasts really with what the world is thinking. You know, it’s not necessarily a feeling. You know, when we’re commanded to love your enemies doesn’t mean that I’m supposed to feel wonderful about people that hate my guts.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yes.

Jason O’Grady: Right. And I think too often we think love is equated with an emotion. And I wouldn’t say that that’s really the case. Now it’d be wonderful if emotions follow that love, but I think it’s really that decision to treat others, seek out their well-being as the Lord did for me. Because, you know, we were enemies of God when Christ died for us. And in the same way, you know, we should be loving others and by, by, I’m using the same word, but we should be showing  or seeking their well-being in all things, even when it inconveniences us, even when it’s sacrificial or even when we don’t feel it.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah.

Jason O’Grady: And I think that’s contrasting with how the world feels love is. Especially with, what is our divorce rate in this country, like 50% or something. And it’s always, well, you know, we fell out of love. No you didn’t. You just had a patch where you’re not feeling it right now. Right. So that’s how really I look at it. I mean, obviously I’m going to have the slant that true love comes from Christ which I actually think is the truth. Um, and that colors then how I would define love. And that’s why when I was going through this, I’m like, if I’m going to be using love so often, I’m going to have to define it. Right? And I think Doctor Evans does better than me in many things. I’m not a wordsmith. So that’s why I wanted to use his definition.

Pastor Brian Martin: That’s great. That’s great. So one of the quotes I pulled from, you know, because I have the benefit of watching it on YouTube, uh, afterwards you said this, you said we as believers should have love as a defining characteristic. So deconstruct that for us a little bit. What are some examples you’ve observed that revealed like this fake form of love, this fake form of Christianity, this so-called Christianity? What does that look like when it’s fake?

Jason O’Grady: Yeah. Unfortunately, I feel like I experienced that growing up. I went also went to a Christian school. And so the first thing I would think of with that fake or absence of love, but still holding to Christianity is legalism. And that’s what I experienced, unfortunately. I mean, they were, I think scripturally probably were right on with the truth, but had totally lost the loving aspect. I mean, for example, I mean, I got evening detention because my sideburns were too long and I went…

Pastor Brian Martin: I feel like that’s made up. I know it’s not.

Jason O’Grady: It’s true.

Pastor Brian Martin: But I just, I’m not calling you a liar. I just that feels like something you’d see in an after school special.

Jason O’Grady: Yeah. No, it was there. It was real.

Pastor Brian Martin: There’s a reason that it’s in those after school specials. Because for some people, it was actually their experience. Yeah.

Jason O’Grady: And then like my, my senior, um, speech at graduation, I, they wanted to hear it beforehand. So I included because he lives, you know, that it was, I think it was from the 60s. And, uh, one of the administrators came up to me afterwards and said, you need to take that out of your speech. I said, well, why? Their response was, well, that’s of the neo evangelical movement. And we don’t associate with that.

Pastor Brian Martin: Oh. Wrong tribe

Jason O’Grady: Yeah, yeah. I was a little wise and I said, well can I use the Bible or is that of the neo evangelical movement? And he said.. That wasn’t the best thing to respond, let’s just be honest. He said, you better watch it or we’ll hold your diploma.

Pastor Brian Martin: Oh, wow. Yeah. Not even gonna not let you speak. We’re gonna hold your diploma.

Jason O’Grady: Correct 

Pastor Brian Martin: Wow

Jason O’Grady: So anyway, when you asked, the original question was, how does it look? It’s really that legalism that holds to, it holds to the law. I don’t know how else to say it. I mean, we need to have truth. I believe that with all my heart. But when that truth is totally absence of love, um, we forget all the forgiveness that we needed, I guess, is the point that I’m making.

Pastor Brian Martin: It’s a 1 Corinthians 13 problem. You can do all these things in the name of Jesus, right? You can have these spiritual powers and all that, right, but if it’s without love, it’s like a clanging gong or resounding cymbal.

Jason O’Grady: Right, right which no one likes to listen to.

Pastor Brian Martin: No, no. Yeah. Interesting. Jamie actually has a gong in his office.

Jason O’Grady: Are you serious?

Pastor Brian Martin: He does.

Jason O’Grady: He hasn’t brought it out in a Sunday morning. I don’t know why.

Pastor Brian Martin: No, I don’t either. We’re office neighbors, so maybe one of these days I’ll hear just, you know, bong…I don’t know. It hasn’t happened yet.

Jason O’Grady: You should bring it to, like, one of the, uh, team meetings.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah, yeah. Just don’t like what somebody says. Hit it.

Jason O’Grady: Or you’ve only been speaking for two minutes. Let’s. Yeah, right.

Pastor Brian Martin: Let’s keep it moving. Let’s keep it moving. Yeah. So. Okay, you, you, you quoted some song lyrics as well.

Jason O’Grady: Oh, yeah.

Pastor Brian Martin: And I’d never heard of this guy Larnelle Harris, I don’t know.

Jason O’Grady: Oh, he’s such a great singer.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah, he can wail for sure. I did a little YouTube adventure just to find out. Yes, and that’s fantastic. So I, uh, I didn’t find Christian music at all until the year 2000.

Jason O’Grady: Oh yeah.

Pastor Brian Martin: I was a junior in high school. It was the first time I really ever jumped into the fray there. What effect did Christian music have on your theology and your your upbringing?

Jason O’Grady: Yeah, that’s a great question. I mean, I was in contemporary Christian music, I think for as long as I can remember, to be honest with you. I mean, I went to the Newsboys back in like seventh grade when they had the elevating drum set and everything. Oh, yeah. I thought that was like, the best. Um, and I still would say, you know, Third Day is my all time favorite band. And they went on a little hiatus and just came back this year, which I thought was fantastic.

Pastor Brian Martin: I don’t, I can’t say I keep up on the whereabouts of Third Day, but all right.

Jason O’Grady: But to be honest with you, I mean, I have a wide variety of songs, I mean music that I would listen to in contemporary Christian. I mean, I mentioned Larnelle, which is almost like he’s classically trained, right? I mean, he does almost first tenor kind of gospel music. Yeah. Um, but then I also like 12 stones and Kutlass and Pillar, which is a lot harder contemporary Christian.

Pastor Brian Martin: I’ve been to a Pillar concert.

Jason O’Grady: Isn’t it fantastic? Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and like Skillet, they’re coming actually, I think to Minnesota later this year.

Pastor Brian Martin: Are they? I’ve also been to a Skillet concert. Yeah.

Jason O’Grady: So that’s and I would say I enjoyed it. I mean, that was probably most of the music that I listened to growing up. But as far as affecting my theology, I don’t know if it did.

Pastor Brian Martin: Um, or maybe just not consciously.

Jason O’Grady: Correct. Yeah, that’s a great point. I think the other hard part for me right now is seeing people that I had looked up to struggling with public sin now in a lot of those groups. I mean, I mentioned DC talk, but that’s we’ve had some men in there that struggled. The same was true with the original singer of Newsboys. Uh, so I think, I mean, we’re all fallen, right? And that’s why we need to make sure that we’re not venerating others and also hold each other accountable, because we could all, but for the grace of God, it could be us that were making that fall.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. It doesn’t take a large platform to affect you.

Jason O’Grady: Right.

Pastor Brian Martin: You know, and these guys had really big ones. But even small platforms, when you get that taste of power can corrupt you. And you have to be very aware of it and very careful with it and give it up to the Lord. I mean, yeah, yep. It’s a dangerous world out there.

Jason O’Grady: It really is.

Pastor Brian Martin: It definitely is. Definitely is. Mm. So sticking with that theology theme just a little bit, we talked about Romans 5:8  you know, a bit. And while we were still sinners Christ died for us. So why is the order of loving that God loved us first important for our understanding of who God is and how he relates to us?

Jason O’Grady: Oh, I think that’s really good, actually. I mean, there’s a lot of different facets that you can go from that. First, when I think about it, it’s that God is the originator. Um, that he’s the one that has pursued, and it’s not, which takes away the works based piece, takes away the legalism too, you know, not like I could do anything. And the other piece that you know we’re trying to keep together is the fact that I’m a sinner deserving of death yet the Lord loved me enough to sacrifice his son. Right. Which are both true but seem diametrically opposed. You know why, I was an enemy? Why in the world would he do that? And I think that, um, the only response that we can have there is absolute adoration and love for him. I think it just, um, again, reveals the chasm between our fallen humanness and his holy righteousness.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. So interesting. I, um, I actually officiated a wedding this weekend.

Jason O’Grady: Oh that’s awesome.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. Um, and so Andrew and Kendra, congrats in case you’re listening. And, uh, I, we were actually talking about this very idea about just the passages they gave me to work off of, the pursuit of God, that he’s the pursuer. And I was actually contrasting how different the love of God is from the way we date and get engaged and get married. Right? Because what you’re actually doing in a dating process is you’re examining, is this person crazy? You know what I mean? Like, you know, or how much crazy is there or whatever, right? And it’s this careful, I mean there’s a function to dating, engagement, marriage, like to that process, right? And it’s actually a good function because we don’t know who that other person is really. Like we have to see them from all these different angles, you know metaphorically speaking. How they handle this situation, how they handle that situation. And, and so the pursuit is somewhat based on like it’s, it is performative to a degree, right? It’s like, okay, we went on one date. Do I still like her? We went on two. Do I still like her? We went on three. Am I still interested? And God flips that completely on his head. That whole concept. He’s like, I know literally every bad thing you’ve ever done.

Jason O’Grady: Yes.

Pastor Brian Martin: And I love you anyway.

Jason O’Grady: Yeah.

Pastor Brian Martin: And I’m pursuing you anyway, with full knowledge of all of the, not the crazy, but the sin, like the full knowledge of that. And he says, I want you. What?

Jason O’Grady: And I, when you say that, I think about that passage. I think it was Isaiah, you’re going to have to fact check me and maybe our listeners can do it too. But that’s essentially where the Lord was saying that I chose you, Israel, not because of anything you had done, but because of who I am. You know, which I think is great.

Pastor Brian Martin: I mean, yeah, I don’t know if it’s Isaiah or not off the top of my head either, but that sentiment is repeated often in Scripture. Yes. You know, it’s not because of your performance. It’s not because of your ability. It’s not because of your you know, sometimes righteousness gets favored, but not for pursuit. Righteousness gets favored for reward. Yep. And those are different things. And I just think that’s that’s really, really interesting.

Jason O’Grady: You know, you had talked about contemporary Christian music earlier. Did you know the group Phillips, Craig and Dean?

Pastor Brian Martin: I would say that was a little before my time, you know what I mean?

Jason O’Grady: That was real old school.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah.

Jason O’Grady: But they did a song called When God Ran. So basically after the Prodigal son, you know, when that son said, hey, you know, at least I can go back and ask if I can be a servant in the father’s household. And as soon as his father saw him, he ran, ran to him. And I think that’s what the father does for us, is that he pursues us when we don’t deserve it.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yup. I see yours. I’ll raise you, no…

Pastor Brian Martin: Uh, Audio adrenaline, similar era of audio adrenaline. Um, I don’t know what it’s called, but it’s like the 99 or whatever. Like. Leave them all behind to find you. Same idea, right, again. It’s that perpetual theme in scripture of God’s pursuit. And we should be, I feel like this isn’t the best word, but we should be so flattered by that. I mean, you know, it’s more than that. We should obviously be grateful and thankful and humbled by that.

Jason O’Grady: Yeah. I mean, it should lead to behavior change. Yeah.

Pastor Brian Martin: Right, right.

Jason O’Grady: If we really realize all that he’s done to chase us down and to have a relationship.

Pastor Brian Martin: Right. Yep. Because we’re messed up, screwed up and deranged. You know what I mean? Like we just are. That’s that’s the core of who we are. But then when we move from sinner to saint, now it’s a completely different thing, you know? And even though we still make mistakes, we’re seen differently, categorically different. And it’s, it’s a beautiful thing. Well, to that point, I think piggybacking on that a little bit, you talk about Cal Ripken, you’re obviously a fan. You’re a big Orioles fan.

Jason O’Grady: I think I’m wearing an O shirt right now.

Pastor Brian Martin: You are.

Jason O’Grady: I’m sorry. I know.

Pastor Brian Martin: Why would you be sorry? I think my love of the Green Bay Packers is well known around here, so…

Jason O’Grady: That’s so true.

Pastor Brian Martin: It’s fine. It’s fine. Actually, do you remember one of, I think the first time we ever really connected I was telling you about a guy I used to know that played for the Orioles. Do you remember this? Yeah. Anyway, a pitcher back in the day.

Jason O’Grady: That’s awesome.

Pastor Brian Martin: We’re too old now to be in professional sports. So he has retired of course, but he’s back in our hometown doing some coaching and stuff, which is cool.

Jason O’Grady: Hey, Nolan Ryan was still pitching a couple years after us. As far as his age.

Pastor Brian Martin: Good point.

Jason O’Grady: So there are a few.

Pastor Brian Martin: Good point. There are a few who hold on a little, a little longer. Oh boy. But Cal Ripken’s special, obviously. Like, I don’t know if that record will ever be touched.

Jason O’Grady: I don’t think so. I mean, right now, the closest I think is 800. Like a current person.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. I mean, come on. So just I mean, I think sports science is just different. And it’s like, no, you need rest, you know, and the whole philosophy is different. But in any case, so let’s translate that into faith terms a little bit. What’s the difference between being a fan of Jesus versus being a follower of Jesus?

Jason O’Grady: Oh yeah. That’s a great one. Yeah. Um, so I would say a fan is you pick out the things that you like about that individual and you kind of trumpet those things. You know, like I mentioned all those stats about Cal. Um, he also started, you know, baseball camps. I think that’s great. There’s actually a stadium that he helped build in his hometown in Aberdeen. I mean, these are things that you talk about. You’re like, yeah, I’m a fan of those things, right? I actually don’t know him as a person. I don’t know how he he really is. But to be an actual follower of Jesus is that we do as he’s instructed us to do, regardless of our feelings on it.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah.

Jason O’Grady: Right. So it’s not just a fan that you can pick and say, oh, he was a great teacher. Let’s look at the top five things that he said, you know, that we should, um, you know, love one another. We should give to the poor. Um, you know, I’m going to take those things, but as far as pick up my cross daily and follow him, um, I don’t know if I think I can leave that be. So that to me is the difference between a true follower or, you know, we’d say disciple in christianese, right? Um, and what a fan would be. Because I think in our, um, current, Even here in America, there’s a lot of people that would be a fan of Jesus. And I’ve even seen people for sure quote him all the time to say, you know, well, Jesus would approach it this way. Right. But then their lives and their decisions don’t actually line up with what the Lord’s asked us to do.

Pastor Brian Martin: I feel like in the political sphere, scripture has been sort of tried. It’s it I feel like with higher frequency that I’m aware of, Scripture is being used as sort of a weapon to justify positions.

Jason O’Grady: Yes.

Pastor Brian Martin: In a different way than it was before. And I mean, I think that’s always happened, don’t get me wrong. But I think one of the ways that I think it’s a little different now is like people who don’t spend any time ever reading it, try to use it, and they just usually reveal how little they actually know about it. You know, anyway.

Jason O’Grady: Because it feels like they’re approaching it to garner votes rather than actually engaging in what it says or even the context.

Pastor Brian Martin: I think you’re absolutely right. But I also think there’s something else going on there that might be a little bit supernatural. And this is just Brian’s take. They’re actually honoring the authority of scripture in a weird way when they do that because they’re saying like, well, if Jesus is with me, then I must be right. There’s, there’s sort of this like undercover admission of the power of God in there. And I think, I mean, it depends on who we’re talking about. Everybody’s at a different place with that, and we’re just speaking in generalities. But I think that’s an interesting accidental reality there.

Jason O’Grady: No, I agree with you that I think it’s becoming more common. But to be honest, I mean, it’s been present since, you know, the temptation of Jesus.

Pastor Brian Martin: Oh Absolutely. Yeah. Good point.

Jason O’Grady: Where we take scripture and twist it to your own ends, you know. Doesn’t Scripture say. Right. Um, but now I just feel like it’s much more frequent, at least in American culture.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah, yeah, I think you’re right. I think you’re right. Yeah, it’s an interesting time. Um, but it feels like a sweet time when it comes to opportunity.

Jason O’Grady: Yeah.

Pastor Brian Martin: You know, the harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few.

Jason O’Grady: I don’t want people to get discouraged. Because the Lord is moving. Um, even when it feels like he’s not. Um, or in, you know, closed places. You know, you think of China, Russia we just talked about before. The Lord’s doing a great work there. He’s building things up and I’m hearing about people coming to Christ in Iran.

Pastor Brian Martin: Fastest growing church in the world.

Jason O’Grady: How amazing is that?

Pastor Brian Martin: I can I hardly believe it.

Jason O’Grady: Yeah.

Pastor Brian Martin: But we do because God’s God.

Jason O’Grady: Yeah. We just need to not forget we’ve got a mission field in our backyard.

Pastor Brian Martin: That’s right.

Jason O’Grady: Right here in Rochester. Because the Lord’s bringing the world here in many respects.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. Because rejection of the Lord takes a lot of different forms.

Jason O’Grady: Oh, yeah.

Pastor Brian Martin: You know, and what rejection of the Lord in Iran looks different than rejection of the Lord in Rochester, but they’re not actually different in their effect.

Jason O’Grady: Right

Pastor Brian Martin: So it matters. Well, brother, thanks for taking the time to be with us here on the podcast, but also thanks… You know, I, I know the kind of time and energy it takes to put together a sermon. So, you know, thanks for.. you’re a family man, you’re a doctor, you got lots going on. But, but taking the time to bless our church with your thoughts and your, your wisdom that you bring from the word when you teach us. So thanks for being a part of it.

Jason O’Grady: I really appreciate the invitation and hope that the Lord gets the glory, because it’s only through him that we can do it anyway.

Pastor Brian Martin: Amen, brother. That’s a great closing thought. So with that, thanks for joining us on the Calvary Callback. We hope this time was an encouragement to you. And whether you’re a part of our Calvary family or if you’re listening from somewhere else in the world, we invite you to join us in our mission to pursue passion for Christ and compassion for people. For Jason O’Grady, I’m Brian Martin. We’ll catch you next time on the Callback.