Pastor James Lowe: Hey everyone, welcome to the Cavalry Callback, a podcast where we take a deeper dive into the weekly sermon at Calvary Evangelical Free Church in Rochester, Minnesota. I’m your host, James Lowe, filling in for Brian Martin in what I like to call premium English. I’m here today with John Chaco, who preached a sermon titled Confident Love, looking at 1 John 4:18-19, John Chaco, welcome.

Pastor John Chaco: Thank you. It’s good to be here.

Pastor James Lowe: I want to begin with a very personal question. Is it true that in your spare time, you design sandals for vegans?

Pastor John Chaco: Yes, yes. Very true. In all my spare time, I can’t think of anything better to do than to make sandals that are completely plant based for vegans.

Pastor James Lowe: I mean, that’s incredible. The service you’re, you’re providing to the world. But in all seriousness, I wanted to start with the phrase, which you began with, just early on, in your sermon this week used the phrase, “The feeling most associated with judgment isn’t confidence, it’s fear”. Did you find yourself making this journey from fear to confidence, or have you always been there?

Pastor John Chaco: Oh, no. There’s, uh. That’s definitely a journey. Even, you know, something that can still wrestle through, because when you, you know, when you mess up, when you, when you do things that you know, you shouldn’t have done, there’s always going to be this concern about how people react or more so how people respond when you own it kind of, you know, I think you, we all run into relationships that we’re insecure about. And, really what I tell my students is, you know, when someone really loves you is when you messed up and they love you in spite of that’s pretty powerful, actually.

Pastor James Lowe: Mhm, mhm. Is there a moment where you put down that, where you could pinpoint that transition in your life?

Pastor John Chaco: Yeah. There’s a couple moments I think, you know, sometimes even it’s probably more than one, because I think there’s always a part of me that goes, oh, that was just maybe a fluke, you know, a fluke that one time where, that person forgave me, you know? And sometimes it’s hard because like the repetition of failure, it does build in like,  that was, that was last time. Right. But will this person do it again? And I would say in my closest relationships, you know, my wife for sure, she has been so gracious with me. You know, when she’s seen me in my, in all my knuckle headedness and still loves me. That speaks volumes to me because there’s always a part of me that goes, you really don’t love me that much to you. You know, and I think that’s just the natural human tendency is to be like, there’s no way that someone can love me like that. And,we think that even about the Lord, you know, but it is really an unworldly kind of love he has for us, which is yeah, it can be hard to believe at times.

Pastor James Lowe: Mhm. Mhm. Do you find families a place where you particularly experienced that sense of God’s forgiveness and the and the confidence in other’s love.

Pastor John Chaco: Oh, yeah. I mean, it goes both ways. You know, I think it’s easier for us to believe that we’ll love somebody unconditionally, you know, because they’re like, yeah, of course I’ll be there for anyone. But then you apply that back to yourself. And I go, yeah, but nobody will be that for me. And I go, that’s not true. First and foremost, it’s always like, okay, I do believe God did that. I mean, he did that on the cross. Right. And he still does it. He, I mean, he intercedes for us even now. And I believe that. So yeah, it plays out in real life in your family. I think that’s one of the areas in which I find that to be more visible and reassuring in a reflection of God’s love, you know, which should be in the church too. I’ll say that as well. The church too, as well, which I consider family.

Pastor James Lowe: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. But here’s the question especially, I think culturally relevant is confident love just entitlement?

Pastor John Chaco: That’s a great question. I think, you know, in some cases it can turn into like, this is you owe me this. God doesn’t owe us anything, right? If he gave us what he what we’re due, it would not be that. It’s that’s why it always comes back to grace. I think it’s more of a belief. I believe that God. This is who you say you are to me. And so really, it’s the entitlement that shifts the focus to me versus where it’s a grace. It focuses it to Jesus, to God, to the spirit, and how he says, he will, he who began a good work and you will finish it. You know, I think that unrepentant sin is always a concern, right? I remember I heard a pastor one time said that there’s never safety in sin. And John, you know, first John talks about this, you know, that we need to confess our sins. You know, I think Kyle had that that passage he talked about habitual sin, right? Habitual sin is always a scary thing. Like it should not be something we ever feel confident or safe in.

Pastor John Chaco: That’s where it can be entitlement. Yeah, but it’s different when we go through. I loved what Kyle said in that sermon. He goes, it’s what you do afterwards, right? It’s. That shows you what path you are on. If it’s entitlement, then you’re going to think, I’m owed this and I can. I have confidence in continuing in this lifestyle of unrepentance versus I need to confess this. That’s a position of humility, position of grace and position, which I think you’re calling out and asking God to intercede. And he’s faithful and he sees that. He sees the real heart motivation behind what we do. And so could it be entitlement? I think, yeah, with with the wrong kind of heart behind it. But that’s not the main point. I think the focus is I trust that God says he will forgive if I confess that he is faithful to forgive. So the confidence is in its. The point is where you have the confidence in. Is it me or is it him? And if it’s in him, then it’s not entitlement.

Pastor James Lowe: Mhm. Do you think there’s a sense in which, you know, when, when Jesus was speaking to his Jewish audience. The epistles that were written to Jewish, predominantly Jewish churches in the New Testament that they’re kind of trying to convince people, hey, you’ve been saved from judgment. Like, you know, you’re sinful, but you’ve been forgiven. And the emphasis is on the forgiveness that they have and the fact that they don’t have to earn God’s goodness. Do you think now that’s almost flipped where our message to culture is actually, you really deserve judgment and you really deserve sin. Sorry. You really, you really are sinful and therefore you deserve judgment. Do you think our message has flipped a bit to this culture or.

Pastor John Chaco: To our culture, being that we emphasize judgment now?

Pastor James Lowe: Well, to our culture being that we, we emphasize, your innocence, you know, the idea that, well, if you’ve done something wrong, that’s a good reason for it. And you’re kind of a victim of what’s happened around you. And that’s what’s made you do this.

Pastor John Chaco: Yeah, I think that sometimes we can de-emphasize personal responsibility and that we’re just a product of our environment and culture. Is that kind of what you’re saying? My tracking with you? Yeah. And, yeah, I think there’s pitfalls on both sides, right? You can get into lack of responsibility. I’m more of a victim and more a byproduct of what’s been done to me versus, you know, this legalism. I need to earn it. I need to work hard. I need to, you know, the sacrificial system kind of was the whole law, you know, was like, all right, if you think that you can earn this on your own, then, you know, here’s all these restrictions and do’s and don’ts and be perfect in this. And I think that both have pitfalls for sure.

Pastor James Lowe: Mhm, mhm. How have you found like, you’ve been in youth ministry for ten years now?

Pastor John Chaco: Oh, a little longer than that. 2013. So 13, 14 years. Yeah.

Pastor James Lowe: 13 years. Gosh. How have you found, uh, young people as you as you’ve seen them going, uh, you know, coming up through youth, you know, engaging with teaching in small groups and the different things, engagements that they’d have with church. How have you found that they cope with this? Are they, do they find themselves able to be confident of God’s love within judgement? Do you find them? Are they kind of growing up with more kind of legalism? And they’re worried that they’re not good enough. They can’t accept forgiveness.

Pastor John Chaco: Yeah, it’s it’s a range, for sure. I think that, uh, our culture challenges authority, and kids, you know, um, just  even if you watch TV shows, you watch movies or whatnot, commercials, even small snippets, I think authorities is really in our culture kind of frowned upon. And so I think they challenge it. I think they challenge authority. I think, you know, just naturally human beings do that. And I think it’s maybe more emphasized in our culture. And so it’s kind of hard to trust authority, you know, and we challenge and we question it. And so I think there’s a little bit of more of that emphasis that I see in the youth. But I also see a tenderness, I see a genuine, like you really do love me. You really do care. And I think there’s also, even in our culture, a performance driven, you know, hey, like you got to measure up, get the grades, pass the test, score the points, you know, on the field or on the court or whatever it is. And so there is this level of like achievement drivenness that I think that also kind of inflates or confuses when we do have failings, when we do make mistakes and we have weaknesses and limitations. And I think that there’s a cover up there as well. And so there’s this rejection towards authority, but also this I need to prove myself and that’s hard to navigate through and then be vulnerable. I mean, when you’re, you’re the most vulnerable, when you are failing, when you’ve made a big mistake. And I think owning that in the face of questioning authority and then trying to live up to expectations. Yeah. That itself is a big hurdle to overcome and be honest and to confess and say, I need help. That’s hard for anybody. And I see that in the youth for sure. Yeah.

Pastor James Lowe: Yeah. I do wonder that there’s more of a I remember a few years ago more of a change in the business world from that came from Silicon Valley. The idea of you should fail quickly. Um, and the business became a bit less interested in presenting a perfect kind of polished image and became more interested in saying, hey, we’re the business who kind of got this wrong. And now we pivoted and we changed to this. And I think you can see that attitude a bit with with young people as well. There’s more of a desire to kind of air out your problems and your faults and admit your mistakes so that you can learn quicker and change. And I wonder if actually there’s a way that there’s a, there’s a goodness in that in terms of kind of, an awareness of a need for grace and an awareness that we’re works in progress and in a roundabout sort of way as harmonized with the gospel. And I think it makes our job a bit easier as youth pastors because we get to kind of harmonize with something which is already happening in culture rather than often what we’re doing is working against culture. But I wonder if that’s one of those places where maybe you’ve seen a bit of a cultural shift, where people are, uh, keener to say, I’ve got this wrong or I’m a, I’m a failure. Like, how do I learn from this?

Pastor John Chaco: Yeah. The wording that came into my mind was authentic self. I hear this, you know, in that I think, you know, with social media, you know, I’ve seen kids post stuff. I’m like, wow, I would never say that, you know, on the, you know, on the website. But there is, I think there’s also a drive to be your authentic self as a pushback towards the, you know, performance driven ness that we see in our culture. Mhm. The high grades, the good scores, whatever,  that there is a little bit of a level of like, hey, I need to be okay to be myself and even air out some of my struggles and imperfections. I do see that. I still think there’s a struggle, to be completely honest. I think people just genuinely are like, man, that’s being vulnerable, showing, you know, the parts of you that necessarily are aren’t necessarily as as accepting towards others perspectives. That’s still a challenge, but I do see the youth that I think as a youth pastors, we both get this. If we stink, the kids will let us know, like they’re not going to hide it. They’re not going to sugarcoat it. They’re going to tell us, crushing, crushing. Yeah.

Pastor John Chaco: That’s trash. You were trash, John. I was like, okay, thanks. I can, I can work with that. You know, there’s certain, there’s always, there’s always kids that are gonna be like, yeah, I don’t like that as much. And I actually appreciate that the honesty. Right. And so, yeah, we definitely would encourage, I also think as you, as you were sharing, you know, where it gets really interesting is who am I in Christ? That’s my authentic self. I think a lot of times people are not just youth, but we’re always trying to find out who are worth and our value. And we find that in a lot of times, in places where it can be a variable, like it can change based upon the day, based upon what you’re doing. But in Christ, there’s a consistency in who we are. Like even going back to what I said in the sermons, like as He is, so are we in this world. Like that’s huge. It’s completely dependent upon what he’s done. And there’s actually a greater rest that comes from that versus when you place your worth or your your who you really are in your perception or how others perceive you or a mixture of both.

Pastor James Lowe: Mhm. Well, that leads me to another thought I had in preparing this was, you know, we’re often told when we are preparing a sermon to, to preach the passage to ourselves. First. I just wondered if there was a passage in your in your preparation. Obviously, we looked a bit at some some words from Hebrews as well as the main passage in 1 John 4:18-19. But was there anything that really stood out to you where you thought like, oh, I feel like I’m hearing this freshly or it’s hitting me in a new way.

Pastor John Chaco: Yes. I’m glad you asked this question because there was a whole passage I didn’t get to share, say, on Sunday. And that was from Zechariah chapter three.

Pastor James Lowe: Okay.

Pastor John Chaco: And it’s a vision of the high priest Joshua, and he’s standing before God. And then here comes Satan the accuser, and he’s accusing him. And then the angel of the Lord. He basically says, the Lord rebuke you, O Satan. Like, basically be silent. And then he looks at Joshua and he goes, Joshua was wearing all these just dirty clothes. He’s like, bring him new clothes. Bring him a bright turban and basically pure vestments. I think it says there in Zechariah, and he clothes him basically in this righteousness. And then the question is, where does this righteousness that he can now wear, where does it come from? And, ultimately that foreshadows and points to Christ. And it’s really a personal picture. Here’s the high priest, right? He’s the guy who goes into the Holy of Holies once a year, and he himself is dressed in filthy rags, and it’s the angel of the Lord and the Lord who changes and transforms him so that he can stand before God. And that personally that spoke to me, I’m like, yeah, I’m like that, you know, like, I can totally relate to that. Lord.

Pastor James Lowe: Yes. It’s such a visceral image, isn’t it just that that idea of like, dirty rags, you know, like the smell, you know, the road dust that’s built up there and then being washed clean. I mean, like even nowadays, keeping my kids clothes that are white clean is very difficult. But you think, you know, the ancient Near East where you didn’t have washing machines or bleach or anything like that, the idea of like a white robe was something decadent. It was splendid. You know, some it was something almost transcendently white like. And that’s why it would be a lamb might be white, but it gets a little bit older. And that fleece is kind of picked up all the dirt and the grime and so on.

Pastor John Chaco: So totally.

Pastor James Lowe: It is. Yeah, it’s a it’s a powerful picture.

Pastor John Chaco: And not only that, but like how Satan’s accusing him. Right. And he’s, that’s a picture I think all of us struggle with is this, the accusations of the enemy or our own hearts? How can our hearts can condemn us? That’s the first John actually goes into that later on. So yeah. Yeah. It’s good.

Pastor James Lowe: Yeah. Well that actually again leads me on. Well, to the next question, which is you took us into some theology around Satan and actually the meaning of the word. Could you describe Satan’s role and the definition of that word that you shared with us, and also go into the response that Christians can have, which is described in the passage that you preached on?

Pastor John Chaco: Yeah. I mean, like Satan’s described elsewhere in Scripture as the a liar, a deceiver. You know, he’s the accuser. I mean, his role is just basically he’s a party pooper, right? Like he just, he just wants.

Pastor James Lowe: That’s, that’s how it’s rendered in the message.

Pastor John Chaco: Yes. The message is party pooper. Yeah. Great. Great translation. Yeah, I think he’s just, uh. He stands against all that God is. That’s good, you know, and he’s, i mean, it says in John’s gospel, he’s come to kill, steal and destroy. I mean, who would want that job description or character assigned to him? But he’s just somebody who is just out for us pure hatred. And so, yeah, it makes sense that his methodologies follow that heart where he’s going to, he’s going to tell you things that are deceiving. He’s going to, his motives is to lie and steal you away and accuse you. Oh, man. Like here’s one lie that we get. I remember, you know, as a young Christian, you still struggle with sin and you’re still wrestling through your theology of how does God’s grace cover this and repentance and whatnot. And, then they hear the enemy going, and you call yourself a Christian. Look, you did it again. Yeah. Right. And it’s all emanates from the same hatred, right?

Pastor James Lowe: Does he have a point, though? I mean, I feel like Satan’s accusations are I mean, he’s right. Right. You know, maybe the way the young person at youth group says, hey, John, you smell or that sermon was bad? Yeah. Never happened, by the way. But, theoretically. But he hasn’t got a point when he says, John, you’re a bad Christian.

Pastor John Chaco: So you’re playing the devil’s advocate now, huh? I see that.

Pastor James Lowe: Wow. Literally, I guess. Yeah. Gosh.

Pastor John Chaco: Uh, I mean, yeah, I mean, he has a point in the sense that he has partial truths. And that’s the point, right? The greatest deceptions are the ones that seem the closest to the real thing. And so he’ll emphasize just like when he tempted Jesus, he used God’s word. So there’s emphasis is on, partial truths taken out of context. Yeah, I did sin. You’re absolutely right. But that’s not the end of it. And that’s devoid of my context of what Christ did with my sin, what Christ has done for me, and how I’m in Christ now currently, and that there is a sanctification process. Two steps. Sanctification in the sense that initially when you’re first saved, like your sins are the guilt of your sins, and the penalty of sins has been dealt with once and forever. But then there’s sanctification after that. That comes from becoming more Christ like, as we still resting through our sinful natures until, you know, we received our glorified bodies when Christ returns. And so, yeah, I think that he does have a point, but it’s missing the full context of truth.

Pastor James Lowe: Yeah. Mhm. And is there a, is there a place where you go to when you’re, when you’re feeling that that heavy weight, when you’re, when you’re struggling to, to really believe those words in John about perfect love casts out fear. Is there a place you go in Scripture, where you say, no, this is how I respond to Satan, You know, like Satan. Satan’s trying to tempt you the way he tempted Jesus, right? He’s he’s throwing scripture at you or something or he’s throwing your your past at you. Where do you go in Scripture? Is there a place that really gives you that confidence to push back and say, you don’t define me?

Pastor John Chaco: Mhm. Yeah. I mean, like I would say there’s a couple verses that are go tos for me. Like, one of my go to places is Isaiah where he says, you’ll keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on you. And I remember when I first read that, I’m like, that’s an audacious claim. There’s no way is that really true? Like, the unbelief is easy to spot there. And I just go back and I say, all right, my mind, Lord, help me to focus on you. When Jesus also second place, Jesus, when he’s sleeping, during the sea and the storm at sea, I’m like, first and foremost, who sleeps through a storm, right? I remember as a kid, I slept through an earthquake. Okay, maybe that’s possible, right? Because like big earthquake happened and it didn’t wake me up. And then I’m like, but what’s the point of missing here? There’s a piece there even in the midst of the storm. And then he rebukes his disciples for not having faith in him, because once again, their faith or their eyesight, their focus wasn’t on him, but on the context of where they found themselves in the storm. And I desire to have that peace. And even when it comes to failures or being tempted away from having my eyes taken off, Christ, you know, like I want to, I go back to those verses and say, God, it’s really about you. It’s not about me. Right. Ephesians two eight and nine. Right. I was saved by grace, not of works, lest I should boast. So I’m thinking to myself again, help me to get my eyes or on or on my situation, my testing. I’m in right now. The trial. Lord, help me get my eyes back on you. Not to ignore that this is hard or challenging or I have to process through some things, but I want to have a confidence and a focus where I can have peace even in the midst of those tough times.

Pastor James Lowe: Mhm.

Pastor John Chaco: Yeah.

Pastor James Lowe: Um, okay. Last question. This is perhaps a bit personal, so answer. Answer as openly as you wish. Where is a place where you struggle to rest in God’s forgiveness?

Pastor John Chaco: My initial thought is the application of how that is played out towards others in my life. I think that it’s easy for me at times to forget how much I’ve been forgiven, and therefore when I forget, it’s easy for me to not forgive others. I mentioned that as an example towards the end. I want to be more aware of that. I think that’s more of a subtle, kind of that kind of mindset can kind of creep in more. So when you begin to not realize as easily. Man, I am unforgiving or impatient or, um, hold a bias towards somebody. And I think that’s one is the application towards others. Another place too is, I would say frequency of struggles, right? Or there are certain struggles, like maybe there are certain sins that I think are more acceptable in our society. And so we kind of let those go and don’t think about that as much. But then there’s the ones that are either more blatant or the ones that you feel like these really define me. And I think frequency sometimes can be a real struggle. I’m not advocating that, you know, we shouldn’t repent or that. I what I’m advocating for is there’s a real difficulty and God knows that like God knows the frailness of us.

Pastor John Chaco: He knows that the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. I read Romans seven, and I take peace in that when I see a mature Paul speak of his own struggles. And so I think sometimes when it comes to forgiveness towards others and then giving myself, it’s the kindness of God that leads towards repentance, right? It’s that God is patient. He’s long suffering. I mean, that’s a great description. He’s long suffering. Mhm. And so I think I sometimes challenge myself, not that I’m like I said, once again, Paul says we should not continue in sin. Certainly not. Right. But the tension of grace that it creates, that God allows. But I want to repeat the pattern of confession, too. And so I think sometimes I just want to stop hurting people. Like that’s one of my prayers is like, God help me to. I just want to hurt people. And I think sometimes I just, not intentionally, but I make mistakes still. And so, understanding that God’s grace and his long suffering patience is even present in the frequency can be a struggle for me still.

Pastor James Lowe: Mhm. Mhm.

Pastor James Lowe: Yeah. I think that’s beautifully put. There is there is that tension, isn’t there, of accepting God’s forgiveness. Reveling in it. You know, being grateful for him, for the forgiveness he’s given us without becoming licentious, without just, you know, sinning all the more so that grace can abound. Right? It’s really. Yeah. One of the great struggles of the Christian life is to accept grace with gratitude and not to take it for granted.

Pastor John Chaco: Yeah. And, as a dad, as a parent now, like I’m I’m gonna say something weird. So hopefully this doesn’t come across.

Pastor James Lowe: Hit me with it.

Pastor John Chaco: Yeah. But like, I don’t, it’s not that I want my kids to continue sinning. I want to continue forgiving, like from a dad’s perspective, like when my kids mess up over and over again, there’s a part of me that gets frustrated. There’s part of me that can lose it, and part of me that can be like, hey, knock it off. You know better now. But there’s also a part of me goes, this is going to reinforce. I really do love them. The repetition of forgiveness, right on the other perspective reinforces that there really is a confident love there. There really is a long suffering. And so in some cases, we forget from, you know, not that we should see it always. It’s hard to see it from God’s perspective, but he delights and he enjoys our relationship. And like any good father, he also delights in forgiveness. He delights in helping you get back up like the prodigal father who saw his son from a distance and then ran to him. Right. Like so from a parent perspective, there’s also this that’s helped me in the frequency is. As much as I don’t want to like I struggle with the frequency of messing up, of sinning. I think there’s also this aspect that God is as eager and desires to cover my sin, not to condone it. He wants me to repent. It’s not good for me, but at the same time like it. He loves me that much too. And that’s as a dad, when I see my kids do that, like, yeah, there’s a frustration, but there’s also like, I want to love them through it as well.

Pastor James Lowe: Mhm.

Pastor James Lowe: Beautifully put. Well, thanks for joining us on the Calvary Callback. We hope this time was an encouragement to you and whether you are a part of our Calvary family, or if you’re listening from somewhere else in the world, we invite you to join us in our mission to pursue passion for Christ and compassion for people. For John Chaco. I’m James Lowe. We’ll catch you next time on the callback.