Pastor Kyle Bushre: Welcome to the Calvary Callback, a podcast where we take a deeper dive into the weekly sermon at Calvary Evangelical Free Church in Rochester, Minnesota. I’m your host this week, Kyle Bushre. I’m here today with my good friend and partner in ministry, Brian Martin, who preached a sermon entitled Children of God looking at 1 John 2: 28 through chapter 3, verse 3. Oh, how the tables have turned.

Pastor Brian Martin: The tables have turned, the turntables, the…

Pastor Kyle Bushre: The turntables have turned themselves. We are uh, this week, changing chairs though only figuratively. Not literally.  I am the host this week and Brian is the guest. He is the one who’s preached. And a fantastic sermon from 1 John. Uh, Well done. Uh, by the way, listeners, if you happen to catch the squeal of a child at some point during this, uh… There are no children being harmed in this, in the production of this show. Uh, it is a, there is a what, like 200 kids…?

Pastor Brian Martin: I think more than that.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: More than 200 kids?

Pastor Brian Martin: It’s a lot.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: There’s a lot of kids. It’s VBS week here at Calvary.

Pastor Brian Martin: There’s about, I think there’s about 350 bodies in the building. I’d have to double check that number, but that’s usually what it is roughly.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah. And it’s intense and it’s beautifully decorated this year as something else I noticed.  Children’s ministry really went all out.

Pastor Brian Martin: I mean, the Deco team, they went for it this year.  Yeah. We killing a lot of… I was gonna say trees, but most of it’s plastic ironically, because a lot of it’s like depicting greenery of… It’s a jungle theme, you know?

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Oh, yeah. That’s right. That is ironic. It is a little bit. Well, I’ll tell you what. It’s a great, great sermon this week. If you haven’t had a chance to listen to it, you should probably pause this. Go listen to Children of God, uh, our Sunday sermon, and then come back to this so we can dive a little bit deeper into it. I want to start off here. You brought up something during your sermon that I have known about you for years.  I’ve known this about you for years. You equated sin to the taste of coffee. My question for you Brian is this, why do you reject God’s goodness and hate joy?

Pastor Brian Martin: Yes. Uh, well, yes. You know, I think, here’s what I get. I believe that God has created things in this world  for good and right purposes, right? There’s all these herbs and things that will heal you and whatever. And coffee, as a diuretic, I think makes a lot of sense, you know, I mean, it has a purpose. Uh, so I don’t reject it.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: You think it’s supposed to be medicinal only is basically what you’re saying.

Pastor Brian Martin: That’s all I’m interested in.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Should only be served in hospitals for people with certain problems.

Pastor Brian Martin: That’s what I’m saying.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Okay. All right, well.

Pastor Brian Martin: It’s all about proper usage, right? You know, it’s like when people claim they want, you know, like when food companies put like all natural on the label. It’s like, look, man, poison ivy’s all natural too. And I don’t know, that’s not necessarily a good thing, is all I’m saying.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah. Well, I’ve always known you to be a man of very particular tastes. You have a very, very specific things you enjoy. But I know coffee, across the spectrum, all forms of it is something you reject, as a part of the fall.

Pastor Brian Martin: And you know what’s…as part of the fall…. I got to tell you, I actually went all out once. I had a buddy in college who worked at Caribou, and he was like, we’re going to get you to like coffee. So we showed up with like 5 or 6 friends and he went behind the counter and he starts making stuff. He’s like, all right, try it, try this. He starts with just like a latte. And I was like, I’m like gagging. I can’t, just terrible. So then the philosophy was, okay, just hand it down to the person who likes that, you know? So we weren’t wasting stuff. And he does, you know, then like a caramel something. And, and then by like the fourth or fifth iteration, it’s this, you know, whipped like whipped cream on top, like this whole thing. And I drink it and he’s like, come on. And I was like, all right, this is fine. I was like, but I can’t taste the coffee, which is why it’s fine. And I was like, true or false, at this point I’m just eating a chocolate shake. He’s like, yeah, pretty much. I’m like, then why would I pay the extra few bucks to throw the coffee in there that I don’t even want to taste anyway?

Pastor Kyle Bushre: To stay awake. That’s why.

Pastor Brian Martin: I guess.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: That’s why. You just described what amounts to a coffee intervention.

Pastor Brian Martin: Basically. Yeah. They were really they really wanted me on the bandwagon and I just…

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Not to get you off the coffee, but to get you on to it.

Pastor Brian Martin: To get on it. And I just, and I conquered them all.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Wow. Wow. Well, to each his own, I suppose.  You know, you made a very important point about those in the  Bible who can be described as children of God. Of course, your sermon was entitled Children of God.  And you did a great job of describing this. Most of the time when people use that phrase, they mean every single person because we’re all created by God. But that isn’t the biblical use of children of God. Why do you think, uh, the worldly way of understanding child of God is harmful?

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah, that’s a good question. I mean, I do think, right, um, there is… It’s hard. It’s tricky, right? Because that criticism or that perspective, there is some value in it in that, you know, we’ve talked about imago dei here on the pod before, like, because all people do have intrinsic value, value that I believe is endowed by their creator, right? So like, there’s a part of it that is totally fine in that way of speaking, because yes, we’re all created by a God. We all have value, we all have a soul. And those things all matter and those things are all good. But yeah, I do think it’s problematic because, you know, I don’t think I said it in all of the services, but I was joking about how my systematic theology professor used to say he referred to them as like the innies and the outies. Like, you know, who’s in the kingdom of God, who’s not right. And I think people can get fooled into believing they’re innies when they’re not.  And I think that’s where there’s a problem with it in particular. That’s the sort of most serious eternal consequence kind of problem is that not everyone is in who thinks that they’re in. Like I’m convinced that we’re all going to, not just me, but I’m going to be surprised, we’re all going to be surprised at who is and is not in heaven a little bit.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: A little bit.

Pastor Brian Martin: You know, like, we probably have a general sense of, you know, I can think of friends of mine who’ve passed away that I’m like, he’s going to be there, you know? Like, I just have a high confidence level, but there’s going to be people who aren’t there that we thought were going to be. And there’s going to be people who are there that are going to surprise us, I think, a little bit because we are not perfect judges, but God is. God is the perfect judge, right. And so, um, you know, when people ask some of those tough questions about, you know, somebody with mental disabilities, can they go to heaven? Somebody, a child who dies on day two of their life, can they go to, you know, the answer to that question is important, but it actually begins with, Is God an all knowing, righteous judge?

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Right

Pastor Brian Martin: And if God always gets it right, then the rest of it matters less.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah we don’t need to worry so much.

Pastor Brian Martin: We don’t need to worry because we can trust in him that whoever’s supposed to be there is supposed to be there. And so, um, yeah, so I, that’s where, that’s where I think it becomes pretty important is just this understanding of like, we all would like to be thought of as a child of God, you know, because why wouldn’t that be good? Even if you’re a bit of a skeptic, even if you’re somebody who I don’t know if God exists, but I mean, I guess I’d like to be in his family if I could be right, because there’s benefits attached to that, whether that’s, you know, even if you have like a vague sense of heaven and hell and you’re like, well heaven sounds better.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. I think the mistake people make is they think that the family language of the Bible is just talking about the… Is the creation language of the Bible.  So if everything that’s created is part of God’s family, that’s not actually how the family language is used. In fact, it describes coming into that family as an adoption.

Pastor Brian Martin: Exactly. Yeah. That adoption language is so important.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah. You’re outside of this family until you’re adopted into the family. That’s why God, that’s why Jesus can say things like, uh, you have, he tells the Pharisees, your father, the devil is the one you serve. You’re not, you don’t have God as your father, right? You’re misusing that word.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yep, and I think too, like we still obviously today think family is important, you know, in modern sensibilities. But I feel like there was like an extra layer of family name and family heritage that was even more important in the ancient world when we’re thinking about scripture, right? Like, who is your father? Where did you come from? There was there was a deep, deep desire to know somebody’s lineage and understanding in those ways. Right. So, um, and where they belonged. And I think, I wonder if part of that was because of the, um, the war nature of the ancient world, you know what I mean? Like you had to know who you were with and who you were against constantly because enemies were imminently a threat. So you had to know who belonged in the city and who didn’t. Right. For example. So, um, I mean, I think family is always important, but I think it holds I don’t know about extra, but something a little bit different in the ancient world in that sense too.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Mhm. I love how you defined the relationship we have with Jesus as, as something we don’t have to perform to receive.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Do you think it’s hard for, uh, for us, for people to understand God’s love if you grew up in a house where you did have to perform to receive love?

Pastor Brian Martin: I do. I think that can be hard. Actually, a fascinating story about that. Um, you know, because I think there are strands of Christianity that have rejected sort of God as father as a concept. And I have some empathy for that. Um, and, you know, I’ve even had good conversations with friends and colleagues, you know, you know, cross town colleagues, I mean, um, about that, you know, I was talking to one youth worker several years ago now who was just saying like, look, I’m working with kids whose dads are gone or terrible, you know, they’re in prison, they’re, you know, whatever, like, right, this, this person in their life is about the worst person that they can think of. And so asking them to think of God as father is really a barrier for them to engage with him at all. So the story is, um, we were actually hosting an event here, a multi church event here, a see you at the pole thing that we used to do back in the day for a youth thing. And um, one of our other cross town friends, um, another free church guy, he was going to be doing the prayer. And one of these colleagues, um, you know, came up and was like, hey, when you pray, could you just not use that like God as father language?  And our friend was like, okay, I’m going up in like two minutes. Really not the time to bring this up. Number one. But number two, he’s like, no, I, I’m not going to not do that because the Bible uses this language to talk about it.

Pastor Brian Martin: And so I think it’s okay to hold intention a little bit. Um, because it’s not like God as father is the only way God is talked about.  I think it’s okay to hold intention a little bit. Okay. Someone I’m trying to minister to struggles with this as a concept. It’s hard for them and hold that intention a little bit. So maybe that’s not the thing you emphasize, but I also don’t think we can reject it. Right. Right. I think, you know, we can’t say that a biblical metaphor can be rejected. There’s a reason it’s there. You know, we were just talking about adoption. If you don’t understand fatherhood, God as father in that sense, then you can’t really understand the adoption part.  So now you’re skewing a whole other bit of, you know, indirect language. Um, you can’t understand what it means to be an heir, which Paul uses that language a ton.  Well, being an heir, especially in the ancient world, meant something more, you know, different than it does now. Like you’re missing all of these things. And so, yeah, I do think it can be, to go back to your original question, I do think it can be a barrier for people. But and I say this with as much love in my heart as I can, but you also got to get over that a little bit. And you have to accept that, um, just because you have a bad, you know, maybe hypothetically you have a bad father relationship understanding, doesn’t mean all fathers are bad.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Right

Pastor Brian Martin: Right. Just because you went to a restaurant once and got food poisoning. Something I did this year, doesn’t mean all restaurants are bad. Like, why are we making one thing everything?

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah. And I think too, that in some ways you can kind of flip this around a bit and say, wouldn’t you have loved to have had a great relationship with your dad or have had a wonderful father? Well guess what? That was an imperfect man who was supposed to model the perfect God that we have. Right? So the longing can, this longing that you might have could actually be fulfilled. You get to do that gently, right? If someone’s really struggling, you walk with them through it.  But, um, you know, you don’t have to have been adopted or be an adoptive parent in order to understand the concept of adoption. You don’t have to be married to understand Christ and the church. So in that sense, um, yeah, you can’t reject these metaphors, but I do think, you know, I do think you need to walk carefully with people in these things because there’s hurt out there.

Pastor Brian Martin: There is. And we can acknowledge that and, and be careful about that. And, and, you know, not only is it not the only biblical metaphor, like one of the reasons I think God has talked about in so many different ways, so many different metaphorical ways we talk about him and titles that he has, is not just because people are trying to find different ways to explain it. It’s because God is bigger than any of those one things like,  he is father, he is friend, he is king, he is counselor. He’s all those things and more, right? And, and so part of it is understanding, like, the depth and breadth of who God is, is somewhat acknowledged by the multiple ways we talk about him. So I think it would also be an error to only ever talk about him as father. Because that’s too narrow.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: That’s right. Yeah. There’s, uh, it’s kind of like just describing Jesus sometimes. He’s like, Is Jesus my king? Yes. Is he my big brother? He’s also my big brother in some sense.  There’s different senses.  You, uh, I pulled this quote as I was listening to your sermon. Uh, I, I pulled this quote that I thought was really profound. You said righteousness doesn’t create sonship. It only reveals it.  What do you, elaborate on that? What do you mean?

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. Um. No matter. Uh. I feel like it’s so ingrained in us for a reason that I can’t explain that we have to earn God’s love.  Um, I I’ve talked to, you know, so many people over the years who will say things, and sometimes it’s subtle, right, who say things like, um….. Like I used to do interviews for our worship teams, like our youth worship teams and stuff. This church and my last church. And one of the questions I would ask is like, how’s your relationship with Jesus? Like just as open ended as possible. And the amount of times I’ve gotten an answer that sounds something like, well, I really, I just got to get my life right with the Lord. And there’s a part of that that’s totally fine. Like I know that I’m in sin. I know that I’m, you know, not living in obedience and good. That is the humility we should have and the self-reflection we should have. But it’s like, but there’s this slippery slope there. You got to be really careful of, where it’s like, somehow I have to clean myself up enough so that I can engage with the Lord.

Pastor Brian Martin: Um, so that he’ll accept me and it’s like, no, like he’s in the mud with you, right? Right. I mean, you don’t need to clean yourself up for him. It’s not, you know, it’s not like cleaning up your house before company comes over or whatever. Like, you know, we have a different sense of comfort of mess in our own home when it’s just our family versus other people. Like he is the family. And so we need to just be okay with that. And so, um, I think people struggle with this idea that they need to perform to earn God’s love. And we have to reject that as a concept outright. And we can’t just, no one can just reject that once. It’s this thing that we constantly have to be working at and realizing. Our like, default position is to think we need to like do stuff so he notices. Do stuff so that he loves us more. And it’s like, there’s nothing you can do ever that will create more love in him for you.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: You say righteousness though, reveals sonship. So in what sense does righteousness, righteous behavior, good works, purity, I’m going to ask you here about purity in just a moment… In what sense does that, is that a badge or some sort of a revelation of a person’s sonship?

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. I think, um, there’s a lot of people who seem real nice, you know, but then you look a little closer and there’s something else. And here’s, here’s what I mean. Um, I think when we get the, the fruit of the spirit listed out, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, right, It’s a singular fruit with all these descriptors. And, um, I heard somebody else speak on this once and it completely changed the way I thought about it. They were like, look, there are people who could be, let’s just say they’re like infinitely patient, but they don’t have love or joy. And so what what I think righteousness is, is the fullness of that fruit. Somebody who is living categorically obedient to the Lord, not perfectly. Nobody can do that other than Jesus, obviously,  but somebody who really bears that fruit of the spirit out, um, can only do that because the Holy Spirit’s empowering it within them. That’s the thing. Like there, there are people without the spirit who can at times show joy, can at times, you know, have goodness in them. Maybe. Yeah, maybe that wasn’t the best example. But I’m just thinking of the list of the, you know, the fruit of the spirit.

Pastor Brian Martin: And it’s like, okay, maybe that one for a bit, but it’s not sustainable. It’s like, I feel like the people that I’ve encountered who do show this righteousness that I see as an example of righteousness. There’s like a depth of goodness to them. It’s almost the way I want to say it, where, you know, again, nobody’s perfect, but it’s this idea of like, there’s more to it than they’re just a nice guy. It’s so much deeper. And I think the people who have really submitted their lives to the Lord, which by the way, begins with humility. They have to be humble enough to say, I don’t have this figured out, right. We’ve all known people who have been in church for forever, but their lack of humility is what’s stopping them from being more fully sanctified, right? Um, so I think that that deep righteousness that where they’ve had to sacrifice and scrap and work with the Holy Spirit, empowering them to become who they’ve become, that’s when you’re like, when I was saying before, who’s going to be in heaven? I’m pretty sure that guy’s going to be in heaven because I can see it, right? Because it’s that ongoing work.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: His sonship has been revealed in the work that you see, in the fruits that you see coming out of his life. That that work, that fruit doesn’t make him a son. It reveals that he is.

Pastor Brian Martin: It reveals that he is. Absolutely.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: That’s great man.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: So God tells us to purify ourselves because Jesus is pure in this passage. Now we know that’s not how we’re saved, just like we just said, right? But this is for those of us who have already been made pure and righteous because of Jesus. But once we’re in Christ, what are some things that we need to do to purify ourselves? What are some things that stand out to you?

Pastor Brian Martin: Mhm. Well, I think the passage talking about hope is so interesting. And one way maybe of talking about hope is, you know, what are we trusting about for the future? Like what about our future are we trusting? And I think that’s such a big thing to, to really think like, okay, down the road, whether that’s for eternity or, or even just down the road in my life, like, what am I really putting my stock in? If I feel comfortable in my life because my 401K is looking good, well, that’s putting hope in something that’s other than the Lord. I’m not saying that there isn’t wisdom in that, right? Obviously there is a lot of wisdom in that. But if I’m putting my hope in the fact that I have these friendships or family relationships that are just meaningful to me, you know, that’s not, that can’t be where ultimate hope is, right? The saddest funeral I ever facilitated, I haven’t done that many, frankly, in my career, but the saddest one that I ever did was a 24 year old suicide, which was very sad.

Pastor Brian Martin: And the reason it was really sad, I mean, just the circumstances by itself was sad, obviously, and I did not know this person ahead of time. Um, but the saddest thing for me was walking along with this mother who had just lost her young son, and she didn’t totally understand why, but the biggest sort of sorrow I had for her was that her hope was in the casket. Her entire life plan was like to be associated to him, to help him succeed, to, you know, watch him get married and and have kids someday and then have grandbabies. Like that was her whole plan. And she never would have articulated that, obviously. But that’s what sort of was revealed to me as we talked. And I tried to help her navigate through that. And I just think the revealing of what we actually put our hope in, that’s, that has to be a sobering reality for all of us, you know? What is it that we’re actually counting on for our future? And if it’s anything other than the Lord, we better do some soul searching.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: So what does purifying look like in that particular example that you’re using here?

Pastor Brian Martin: Well, I think again, you know, as I mentioned in the sermon, like purifying is this idea of, of one thing. That we need to be pursuing our hearts fully after the Lord. And if we’re pursuing things of the world and the Lord, right, the lemonade and the coffee…  If we’re pursuing after more than one thing, um, that’s going to be a problem. That’s not what the Lord is asking of us. And again, it’s not him asking for perfect behavior, but it is maybe directional.  If I could use that concept, like we’re directionally pointing our lives toward him and the things that he loves and desires and wants for us and commands us to, instead of, um, the things that we just naturally want our own flesh.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Um, would you agree that this, uh, the purifying, when we look at the stuff in our life that that may need to be removed in some way, some things must be removed like sin, that’s to purify sin is to, and to maintain it is to not be purified.  So some things have to be rejected, but some things simply need to be brought under the Lordship of Christ.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yes.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Right.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. Reject or redeem is sometimes the way I’ve heard that.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s a great way of putting it. Reject or redeem. And I think I find it difficult sometimes to help people figure out what those two things are. I think there’s a lot of questions you have to ask people when it comes to, is this thing an idol in your life that needs to be rejected? Or is this a this a thing that needs to be brought under the Lordship of Christ in your life? Yeah. Um, and, you know, if we’re talking about your marriage, it needs to be redeemed, right? That’s clear. If you’re looking at porn on the internet, that needs to be rejected, right?

Pastor Brian Martin: Clearly.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: So but but there’s, there’s other things in the gray area that I think, um, some good counsel in your life can really help you to determine, but that’s really what purifying is, right?

Pastor Brian Martin: Absolutely.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: And to your point, the hope, right. What am I hoping in? Okay. Am I hoping in something that’s sinful? Then I need to reject that. If I hope, most things you hope in probably are pretty good, though.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: But they’ve subsumed all of your hope. And you know, when the stock market crashes, your god dies in the bank. Your bank account goes away and suddenly you’re left, you know, without a purity of devotion to the Lord. And you can see it in that way.

Pastor Brian Martin: And that is where it gets confusing because so many of the things we do love and value are not bad things, right? You know, I love my family. I’m supposed to. I’m commanded to, you know, I’m commanded to lead my family and love my family. And that’s, that’s good. But if it takes that ultimate position, if I love my family more than the Lord, then I’m in sin. And and so some of it has to do with prioritization, you know, and I think really like what I was saying about, um, this woman who lost her son, maybe the exercise to help us realize, you know, where we need to be purified and maybe where we need to seek counsel from our small group or whoever is like, if I lost this, would I still be okay?  You know, or would all hope be gone?  You know, um, it makes me… yeah think of, I feel like there’s several examples from history of Christians who lost so much, so much.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Well, the ultimate example of course, is job from the Bible.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Like the whole test was to see if you could remove everything from him. Would he still honor the Lord? Right? Yeah.

Pastor Brian Martin: I was just thinking of, uh oh, who wrote It Is Well, With My Soul. Right? The story of that one, right? Loses his whole family, you know, in a shipwreck, basically. Or multiple members, I don’t remember.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah it was a shipwreck.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah, yeah. And he, then his response is writing that hymn, it’s well with my soul, you know, and which was probably him trying to write himself into that opinion.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah. You know, which is some catharsis going on there. Right. Um, yeah.

Pastor Brian Martin: Amazing.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: But well, hey, um, before before we end here, you have served here at Calvary for a very long time, um, more in family ministry than even in your current role as our, um, adults pastor. Uh, and so I’m, I’m wondering, I want to return to this idea to dads. I think I feel like you can give some pretty great advice from this passage, uh, to dads to parents in general. But what would you say to the dad or the mom who has not been, uh, unconditionally loving of their kid, but, but wants to turn this around and he wants to love his kids the way God loves his children.  What’s a piece of advice?

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. Almost every parent I’ve ever met in my life, really close to 100% loves their kid. And some of them are really bad at showing it, um, in various ways, you know, either because they’re absent or because they’re unnecessarily cruel or whatever. And we could talk about all those things. But I think the first practical piece of advice I would give is just to say the thing that’s already in your heart. And I feel like sometimes parents feel like that just feels awkward or that’s weird, but just looking your kid in the eye and saying, I love you and I love you no matter what. I love you. Um, without condition like you. I love you because you’re mine. And that’s it. And like, I mean, how many times do we take the chance to just say that? Um, yeah, I think it can begin with that. Um, and just, you know, I think that’s just a good life lesson generally, it’s not probably just a parenting lesson, but we should say the thing that’s in our heart. Yeah. Um, because so often we have warm feelings about our kids in this example and we just don’t say them. And I think, um, that’s, that’s the first thing. The second thing is going to sound maybe like a little bit of a weird answer, but I actually think it’s really important. Um, I think as a parent, it’s essentially important to constantly be working on your relationship with each of your children in such a way that they always feel safe that they can come to you with questions.

Pastor Brian Martin: And I know that it sounds a little like far afield of your question, but I don’t actually think it is. What I think you need to be doing is creating an environment where your kid always feels safe, that you are the safe place. And because part of growing up is they keep spreading their wings a little bit more, they keep walking a little further without you. And that’s kind of what the growing up process is. But if they always know they have a safe place to come back to. And, and I think where we torpedo ourselves as parents and not creating a safe place, um, this is something we used to train or I used to train. They maybe still do, I don’t know, but on our youth team, one of the things we would say is, um, when you get emotionally loaded information from a student and I do this with my own kids to, do everything in your power not to overreact.  Just receive it. Just say okay. Thanks for sharing that. And you, you’re going to have emotions about, you know, especially if it involves you or something your kid did that was, you know, yeah, whatever troubling and you can still have consequences and all that stuff can come later, right? But one of the things kids are doing when they bring you stuff like that is they’re testing like, but will he still love me if…

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Mhm. Yeah.

Pastor Brian Martin: Well, my dad still love me if I tell him this terrible thing.  And the answer has to be yes. And it needs to feel like yes. And and if you’re a person who kind of runs hot emotionally and your first thing is to be emotional. Yeah, then be willing to say, okay, I’m sorry that I, you know, hey, look, I had big emotions when I heard that. Yeah. Let me explain why. It’s because I care about you. And I was worried about what you told me, you know? And so. Hey. And if it’s appropriate. Hey, I’m sorry if I overreacted on that or I’m sorry that I did overreact on that. But yeah, let me tell you where that emotion comes from. Like even just explaining that, you know, so I just, uh, you know, as we’ve been through our parenting journey, um, and, you know, we’re still in it, of course, but trying to create that safe place where kids feel like they can tell us the hard stuff, they can tell us the stuff, hey, I’m worried about my friend because or I’m, you know, I’m struggling with this, you know, I’m sad because like, man, and just affirming those family connections in any way you can. I just think that’s, that’s so huge.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: That’s great advice, man.

Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Great advice. Well, thanks for a great sermon and for joining us and thanks for joining us today on the Calvary Callback. We hope this time was an encouragement to you. And whether you’re a part of our Calvary family or if you’re listening from somewhere else in the world, we invite you to join us in our mission to pursue passion for Christ and compassion for people. For Brian Martin, I’m Kyle Bushre, and we’ll catch you next time on the Callback.