Pastor Brian Martin: Hey everyone, and welcome to the Calvary Callback, a podcast where we take a deeper dive into the weekly sermon at Calvary Evangelical Free Church in Rochester, Minnesota. I’m your host, Brian Martin, and I’m here today with Steve Ansell, who preached a sermon titled You’ve Got to Love Both looking at 1 John 4: 20 and 21. Steve, how are you today?
Steve Ansell: I’m well, thanks very much for having me.
Pastor Brian Martin: Absolutely glad to have you. First time on the podcast. Excited to have you.
Steve Ansell: Yep. Nice to be here.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. It’s good. So you mentioned briefly in your sermon that you’re a physician by day, superhero by night. No, I kid. Uh, what’s, tell me a little bit about exactly what you do. How do you spend your days? What are the projects kind of the broadly that you’re, what are the problems you’re trying to solve as a doctor?
Steve Ansell: I’m a hematologist, so I treat blood related cancers predominantly. My interest is in a kind of cancer called non-Hodgkin lymphoma. And I have a mix between seeing patients with that problem and running a research lab to try and work out how to get the immune system to fight the cancer more effectively.
Pastor Brian Martin: Wow. Yeah, that sounds like it’s probably really interesting work.
Steve Ansell: I love it.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. I doubt you’re ever bored.
Steve Ansell: Nope. Because every day is a new challenge, new question, and a new person.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah, I had a family member. If I’m not mistaken, with both Hodgkin’s and non-Hodgkin’s simultaneously. I think that’s fairly rare. Am I right about that, or is that somewhat common?
Steve Ansell: It’s uncommon. It’s what they call a composite lymphoma. And so the cell that probably caused it is a close cousin. And so it kind of differentiated into two cousins of each other, but their parent was probably related.
Pastor Brian Martin: Interesting, huh. He’s doing well now, which is great. But in any case, yeah. So lots of interesting things to dig into in the sermon. You had a really juicy passage is the word I’m going to use. I mean, I feel like it was short. And you know, you mentioned this too repetitive of a lot of the themes we’ve heard in First John, which is challenging, I think, for the guys coming near the end of the, the, you know, of the book, because there is all this repetition and yet there’s, there’s plenty more to drill down into. And I really enjoyed some of the things that you well, everything that you shared and some specific just to kind of dig into here. So, you know, you made this case, even your title, you’ve got to love both, right? This idea that, um, some people, you know, would maybe argue with your claim that one can’t exist without the other, meaning that loving God and loving others need to sort of coexist in that sense, or both be present for the believer. What would you say to somebody who says they can love others without loving God?
Steve Ansell: So that I think is completely possible.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah.
Steve Ansell: I think that makes you a good person. It makes you someone who’s, uh, altruistic in your views. And all of that is, is great, but that doesn’t really reflect anything of a relationship with our father, God our Father, or with Jesus Christ. So I think when you take it the other way around and you put Jesus or God in the equation, then the love has to follow. Otherwise the two are incompatible.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. And I think there’s something to be said too, about like motivation for love too, because certain loving actions, I mean, can look sincere, but maybe not be sincere in the sense of they might actually be ultimately self-serving.
Steve Ansell: I think very much so. I think if you’re somebody who’s just doing it for yourself, you’re doing exactly that. You’re doing it for yourself. When it’s something that’s a reflection of how much you appreciate what God has done in your life, that’s actually all about for him and for his glory, not for your own.
Pastor Brian Martin: Right. Yeah, I think I think that’s a great point because so much of who we are as followers of Christ should be a response of gratitude, to what God has done for us and through us and all of those things. And I think that can be easy to forget. Can be easy to sort of drift from the reality that we have to have. Yes, a humble heart, but also a grateful heart, which is sort of almost the next step, I would argue, maybe of humility.
Steve Ansell: And I think it’s so important for us to keep reminding ourselves of just how much Jesus gave up and just how much the father paid for our salvation. And I think when that really sinks in, that totally changes how we view how we want to give back to God, how we want to please him, and how our lives need to reflect that.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah, yeah, that’s a great point. So one of the aspects that the passage gets into specifically, it uses the phrase, and you talked about this in your sermon in verse 20, it says, if anyone says, I love God and hates his brother, and brother there I think we’re meant to see, of course not, it’s not meant to be biological sibling or what have you. It’s brothers in Christ, sisters in Christ. It’s the the family of God is the implication there. So there’s been some talk about this in the public sphere in the last few months, interestingly, but I would toss it to you. Do you think we need to love our brothers and sisters in Christ more than those outside the church? Or do you think it’s just that we need to love them differently? Or maybe neither.
Steve Ansell: I actually think it’s neither. I think we need to love everybody the same, because the standard that Jesus said is we need to love others like he loved us. So that doesn’t say, hey, if they’re a Christian, then you can love them especially, and if they’re not a Christian then you can have a lesser love. I think we’re really called to love everybody like Christ loved us, which is a phenomenally high standard. I think all told though, we’re going to be a little careful sometimes not to, uh, sort of dumb down thing what’s in the Bible? Basically, Christ said, there’s no excuses here. Everybody needs to be to be loved at that level. And so while the scripture that we looked at was written by John to members of the church, because it was a problem in that church, I think it’s true for other Christians that we intersect with, but it’s equally true for people around us in the world. Because Jesus in many other places said a bunch of times, love your enemies, for example. And that was not specifically in a love your church enemies. It was all enemies.
Pastor Brian Martin: Right. And I think what’s interesting about that is there’s almost this weird thing in which it kind of goes back to what we were saying earlier about what’s the motivation for the love. Right. Because to love an enemy is inherently sacrificial. It’s always like you’re not getting anything out of that. In fact, you probably feel like you’re losing something out of that. Whereas if you love a family member who loves you back, there’s a cyclical love given and received sort of relationship there. So I’m not saying, you know, we can’t love that way. I’m just saying loving strangers who have never given us anything, loving enemies who we feel against, it actually is, in a weird way, easier to love those people in the way that Christ loved. Because it’s always sacrificial. Whereas with our family members or friends or people that we, you know, go to church with or whatever, there’s, there’s this other piece of, we’ve gotten something back from them or may get something back from them in the future.
Steve Ansell: I think your point about getting something back, it’s very easy, I think, for people to say that’s what I want to do because it feels easy. It feels transactional. Jesus even said, yeah, but everybody does that. There’s nothing in there that makes it anything special. So if you really want to be the the Christian with the characteristic that Christ called us to have, then I think you need to be willing to love people who will not love you back. I’m not even saying don’t love you back. I’m saying will not, they actually choose to be, you know, antagonistic to you.
Pastor Brian Martin: Right. And this is where, you know, even when I think about modern hate, you know, we don’t think as much, I don’t think as the ancient world did, about conquering powers. You know, we don’t think about big armies coming in and killing all the women and children in our village, which is probably more what they were thinking of when speaking of enemies, because that happened a lot. Right. But, you know, in modern times, who do we think of as enemies? Sometimes that’s political lines. Sometimes it’s other things. I don’t know, it could be any number of things, but, um, we have to be careful that we don’t just only think of it as like war enemies or something like that. It’s it’s broader than that, I think.
Steve Ansell: I mean, I think it’s broad and I think we need to think right across the entire spectrum. I mean, right now in the US, there is a war going on. And so there is a group of people felt to be an enemy. So I think one has to think about that. But I think if you look at people you work with that you regard as highly antagonistic to you, the boss who’s always on your case, you may see that person as an enemy. You may have that family member who is always antagonistic and nasty and unpleasant and never respectful of you. You may see them as an enemy, so I think you can have it everything from political kind of big picture to local, like just people you work with in your community, to family, to really close.
Pastor Brian Martin: Mhm. Yeah. I mean, there’s a lot of jokes out there about how people hate their boss or whatever. Right. I mean, you know, the entire like, Dilbert cartoon was sort of about that, right?
Steve Ansell: The office was all about that.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yes. Yes. Oh, man. Yeah, man. I love The office, but that’s another conversation. Uh, so that that’s a great segue to this question too. You talked a little bit later in your sermon about some categories of people who are hard to love, including people who hurt you or your loved ones, people who are judgmental or prejudiced. And I get those. I mean, yeah, those are of course, we’re going to have those emotions of, you know, protection that then make us fiercely against somebody or things like that. And I think I think that makes a lot of sense. So explain how in your opinion, how can we stand against evil things but still be loving? Like what would that look like in practice do you think?
Steve Ansell: So i don’t think the Bible requires us to tolerate really situations and circumstances that will be extremely harmful to us. And so I think it’s okay to show love and love in this regard could be praying for people, forgiving people, that kind of thing. But it doesn’t mean you have to persist in a relationship that could be very harmful to you. I think it’s okay to draw up boundaries. It’s okay to kind of maybe even physically have a degree of separation, because let’s face it, if, if abuse is happening or if something is, is happening that is really not good for people’s, you know, state of mind, I think it’s quite okay to put a degree of separation. But the separation should not be ostracizing the person. The separation should be, we’re going to just be a little further away, and I’m going to be praying for you. And maybe I’ll put in place some folks that will actually help you and help me to kind of resolve some of these challenges.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah, that’s a great point. And I think, yeah, I think a big piece of what you’re talking about there is forgiveness, right?
Steve Ansell: Correct.
Pastor Brian Martin: There’s a piece of that.
Steve Ansell: I think that again, if you really wanted to say I, if you want to begin to love somebody, in my view, you really have to start with, I’ll be willing to forgive the person and really to turn around the everything they say, everything they do, I do not like, I will oppose, I am angry about to Lord forgive me. Maybe I got to start with me and then forgive them and I forgive them. And then really just pray for healing that the Lord would bring in your life. I can’t say that these things are easy. I think actually, to be honest, very hard. But I think that’s kind of where it needs to start.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. And to that point, I, I heard somewhat recently, actually a definition of forgiveness that was something like, I may not be getting it quite right, but that forgiveness is relinquishing the right to punish, which I think is an interesting idea. Right. And you look at the scriptures, you know, vengeance is mine, says the Lord. I mean, so often when we want to withhold forgiveness from someone, it’s because we feel like they still need to be punished by our anger. And when we do that, and we don’t release that and give that up to the Lord and say, you know what’s just God, and I’m going to let you enact your justice in however you enact justice, then we’re basically trying to play God in those. A lack of forgiveness is actually a form of idolatry, which is interesting.
Steve Ansell: So I really like that. And I think just like we make the case that love is an action, love is a choice. I think forgiveness is an action and forgiveness is a choice. And deeply tied. Choosing to hate is as much of an issue as choosing to love. And I think it all comes down to us making a decision with the Holy Spirit’s help to choose love over hate over, you know, unforgiveness.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah, that’s a great point. There is definitely a big choice involved in that. It’s a submission of will to the Lord in that sense. And that’s, that’s a challenge. So, um, another really interesting thing you said that I just wanted to, to tease out a little bit more, was that a lack of love reveals a spiritual problem. And I think that’s so true. Um, and I also think that something that is, has been, um, something I’ve observed fairly regularly, particularly in my two previous churches that I was a part of, you know, leaving Calvary out of the conversation. And frankly, partially because I think I see it at a lower frequency at Calvary, which praise God for, But I see people who are in positions of influence or leadership within the church, and they are just really unforgiving. They’re unloving, they’re judgmental, they’re harsh. Why do churches tolerate that do you think? I mean why are we putting up with that and letting those people get influence in the church? Broad strokes, not just at Calvary.
Steve Ansell: Yes, I think that’s a very important point. I think it’s a difficult one. And I think there’s a lot of individuality around each of the topics. But I think broad sort of, um, shall we just say sense of things i would say, firstly, we tend to value their influence maybe more than what we are concerned about their lack of love. So they’re a very good speaker. They’re a very good business person. They can coordinate things. They can bring a lot of money in. We value that a lot higher than valuing the love they demonstrate, which, by the way, is counter to what Jesus said. Jesus valued, he said, by this you will know that you are my disciples, that you love one another, not that you’re a good speaker and that you can coordinate, you know, programs really well, or that you can make a lot of money. So point is, I think, again, we in the church have got Jesus’ message kind of twisted around a little bit. And I think as churches go back to we want to be disciples of Christ, what did Jesus call us to do and be? Let’s get after that. Then i think it all kind of comes back into line. And then rather than valuing their leadership qualities, which may not really be those, we’ll actually value their love and forgiveness and appreciation of others.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. I mean, not to just go for the jugular on this one, but I actually led a seminar many years ago, and I made the claim that by a lot of measures of leadership, Hitler is one of the greatest leaders of all time. He got people to do things. Right? He brought people from A to B, he had a vision and executed it. And obviously it was a terrible and evil vision. And yet so. And my argument in this whole thing was like character was the term I was using there because I was working in a public school context. But, you know, character is an essential element of leadership in that sense. And, and, and Christ likeness if we’re talking in our, in our sense. So it’s like, if somebody doesn’t pass the loving threshold, if somebody doesn’t pass the gentleness threshold, if somebody doesn’t, then we, we shouldn’t let those things distract us that are worldly things, those skills that you mentioned. And we need to reevaluate what we see as a leader in the church, then.
Steve Ansell: I think that’s a good point. I think we value charismatic leadership. We value people that are big personalities, big voices, big, big everything. Jesus wasn’t that. Jesus was a servant leader. He basically led by giving up. He led by stepping back. He led by putting others first. And so again, when we model ourselves after Christ, I think we’ll learn what leadership in the Christian context is and what we should really be doing if we’re going to be more like Jesus.
Pastor Brian Martin: Mhm. When you brought Desmond Doss into the conversation, which was such an example of what you just said, that here he was, I didn’t really know the story, to be honest with you. So, um, that was really interesting. It makes me want to learn more, watch the movie, read the book, whatever it was.
Steve Ansell: Just to say I’m not endorsing the movie because, you know, the movie’s got a lot of violence was made by Mel Gibson. So you can imagine what it might be. So again, just to say true story. And the movie is actually modeled pretty closely after the story, but just a little, little disclaimer here, you know, not an endorsement.
Pastor Brian Martin: Fair point, fair point. Uh, so this is such a great example of loving and serving others despite how they feel about you and I, I think it’s to a degree, it’s uniquely Christian. I think this is one of the things that sets Christianity apart from other worldviews in a lot of ways, is loving not just those who are hard to love, which I think other worldviews do, but loving those who oppose you. Which I think is an interesting additional piece. So from where do you think one finds the courage and boldness to love like that? Where does that come from?
Steve Ansell: So I think to be honest, it comes from having a heart that has entirely changed by the Holy Spirit. And I think when you have received forgiveness, grace, transformation, that happens because of what Christ has done for you and you really know it in your life, and you really appreciate how much of it, how much it cost Christ and how much it cost the father and how important it is for you. I think that change is that’s firstly, you want other people to experience it. You want to have that shared with others, and then you want to really just show the same love for others that you have experienced for you. I mean, I think often it’s really interesting how we’re happy to take all kinds of things for ourselves and very unlikely to want to share it with others. You know, I think when Christ changes our heart, he changes that attitude.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. And so part of the answer then to here, of course, is the Holy Spirit, I suppose.
Steve Ansell: I think the Holy Spirit is all of the answer.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. Yeah. That’s that’s well argued.
Steve Ansell: I try to make that point because I think if I really look at my own life and say, well, what am I going to what am I going to do in my own strength? What am I going to do with my natural behavior? It’s none of these things. And even when I’m sort of going to do it, I’m going to do it because it’s going to give me something. I’m going to get something out of it in some way. It’s all about me and selfish. Like you made the point right at the beginning. So I think if we’re really are going to do it out of the motive that Christ is calling us to do it, it’s all driven by the Holy Spirit.
Pastor Brian Martin: Mhm. Submission of will.
Steve Ansell: Absolutely.
Pastor Brian Martin: Comes right back to it.
Steve Ansell: 100%.
Pastor Brian Martin: So we’ve been talking a lot about loving. And you touched on this well, I think on Sunday, um, where that calls into question then what is the definition of love? Right. And one of the claims you made, and I agree with is that the world equates love with agreement. So where have you seen that? And why do you think that that isn’t ultimately true?
Steve Ansell: Well, I think we’re seeing it all around us in our culture right now. Everything is becoming increasingly polarized. Um, if it’s political, if it’s around sports teams, if it’s around fashion, if it’s around, you know, just the way in which one should behave, people are either very much endorsing what you’re doing or totally opposing it. If you ever look at the comment section of any kind of post of any kind, it’s always in one of two directions. You know, it’s uncommonly just sort of somewhere in the middle. And so I think there’s very much this, if you agree with me, then I love you and you’re in my team. And if you don’t agree with me, well then I really don’t love you. I hate you, in fact. And you should be in another team. And I will cancel you so that what you have to say becomes irrelevant. And I think that’s the problem, um, is that now, when you say love, love is really my team. I love my team. I love my people. But anybody who’s not on my team or not my people, I can’t love them. And I think Jesus said exactly the opposite.
Pastor Brian Martin: Mhm. And I think in my lifetime, I think there’s been a growing resentment toward Christians because of that, because it’s you don’t agree with me, therefore, I don’t like you, right, christians, because you disagree with me. And I think there’s now there’s also been a counter move where now there’s more Christians who then do it back.
Steve Ansell: Right.
Pastor Brian Martin: And shouldn’t.
Steve Ansell: Absolutely. And I think we’ve also even done the case of, well, we’re loving everybody and you’re not. So you’re actually in one of the others. And we’ve created sort of almost this weird Them and US team. They’re the we Love everybody team, and the team only loves their friends. Now there again, we’ve immediately created again a difference where you’re in my club and you’re not in my club and I think as Christians we really have to guard against that. I think we’re going to be surprised when we get to heaven and see who’s there, and we’re going to be surprised when we get to heaven and see who’s not there.
Pastor Brian Martin: Absolutely.
Steve Ansell: And part of it is again, um, Jesus, he befriended and showed love to everybody. And but if you look at the array of people he actually specifically selected to demonstrate quite, quite unique as to who he picked out.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So, so many. I feel like it is certainly it’s not an accident because it’s Scripture and it was woven together by God, but it certainly you can see the pattern not being an accident, that there are all these very different kinds of people that Jesus interacts with and welcomes into the Kingdom, invites into the kingdom in various ways. Different religious backgrounds, different ethnic backgrounds, different behavioral backgrounds, all of those things. And and he makes a point to say, now this kingdom is for everyone who will submit to the king.
Steve Ansell: Right. And I think, you know, the good Christian folks of his day were the Pharisees and Sadducees that we touched on, on Sunday. And those folks were shocked at who was getting an invite into the kingdom and who was being included by this new rabbi. And, um, so I think we have to be very careful not to find ourselves aligning with the Pharisees, Sadducees, shocked that we should be showing love to these other folks that shouldn’t really be deserving of that. Which, again, is totally contrary to what Jesus said.
Pastor Brian Martin: Mhm. So let me, let me peek behind the curtain with you a little bit. You had the Desmond Doss story, The magnets. I heard you preach, I don’t know how many times, probably ten times or something over the years here at Calvary since I’ve been here. And I feel like you just always have these really great stories. Where does that come from? Are you just a really well-read guy? Is that part of what it is, and do you track them anyway? Do you keep do you keep a folder of like, great stories that might be good in a sermon someday or just good in a presentation someday? Is there a process you have where you just remember these things as you’re working on them?
Steve Ansell: I think I’ve got a little bit of a weird brain that remembers strange things. And so sometimes some of these…
Pastor Brian Martin: That sounds awesome.
Steve Ansell: Sometimes some of these stories are stuck in there somewhere. Um, I do think for me, illustrations help me remember things. Illustrations also make the point a little bit more clear to me. So I think I like to use illustrations as a way to make the point. So, um, I’ll go seeking them out. You know, again, one of the strengths of AI is that you can utilize that to track things down. And, um, but I think at the end of the day, it’s not about the story, it’s about the point it’s illustrating.
Pastor Brian Martin: Always. Yeah, yeah. I found myself over the years, especially as a young preacher, really liking a story and trying to shoehorn the sermon into it.
Steve Ansell: And then that’s probably not the right strategy.
Pastor Brian Martin: And it’s like realizing, no, you can’t do that. You know, you have to know what is the text saying. And now is there some kind of metaphor, story, whatever, that can help bring this to light so that we, you know, can basically till up the ground a little bit so it’s ready for the planting, which is how I usually use stories as a way to break up the ground so people can receive it a little bit better. The point that’s being made.
Steve Ansell: I also think for me reading the passage and saying, what is the passage teaching me, challenging me about? So the point of, of what I try and say when I’m up front is just, this is how I was challenged. This is what I learned. This is how I felt the Scripture spoke to me, not because I know anything special, but because the Holy Spirit is hopefully helping to reveal that through. And then how can I illustrate that a little easier to make the point clearer?
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah, yeah, I, and I hope obviously that the Holy Spirit is we that we are reliant on the Holy Spirit. Any of us who gets up there to preach that our preparation involves deep submission to the spirit and trying to listen to that still small voice. Um, I’m reminded of a conversation I had with a friend of mine who was attending a very Pentecostal church. And no, no lack of love for Pentecostal brothers and sisters. But, um, he said to me, almost like a brag at one point he said, oh, my pastor doesn’t prepare at all. He just opens the scripture and speaks in the spirit. Spirit just leads him on what to say. And I’m just like, look man, do you think that the Holy Spirit only shows up on the stage? Like, is that only when there’s a microphone strapped to him? Like, you know, because his implication to me was, well, if you’re if you have a prepared message, It’s not of the spirit. And I’m like, come on, man. Like, the Holy Spirit doesn’t only show up at 9 a.m. on Sunday morning. Like, and I heard this guy speak once and it wasn’t very good. So it’s like…
Steve Ansell: You know, I think the important thing for me there is that, um, as the Holy Spirit challenges me, I pray that as one shares that with others, the Holy Spirit challenges them. You can have the best prepared sermon with the most fabulous stories and illustrations, and nobody gets anything out of it because it’s really about how the Holy Spirit prepares people’s hearts and how he speaks to them. Nothing impressed me more about that particular point was hearing a top evangelist who got up and I and I really thought he was really underwhelming. You know, basically a very simple little preach and wasn’t very animated and then invited people to come forward if they would like to give their lives to Christ. And hundreds of people went up and you realized it had nothing to do with who said what, it was what the Holy Spirit did in the hearts of the people that were listening. It’s his word that’s not going to return to him void and it’s going to work. And the Holy Spirit’s going to do it, and no amount of human fanciness is going to make any difference.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah, I think it was, i think it was Jonathan Edwards who famously had like a super squeaky voice that people hated listening to. And yet droves came to the Lord because of his preaching, you know?
Steve Ansell: Yeah, absolutely. Because when they heard him speak, they didn’t hear his squeaky voice. They heard the Holy Spirit.
Pastor Brian Martin: The Holy Spirit. Yeah. It’s amazing. It’s amazing. Well, I’d love to end with this if we can. Um, because I just really appreciated the poignant story you shared with this difficult patient who had identified you as a Christian who himself was not, I think was the implication there. Um, and you were when you shared that, you talked about how loving someone and liking someone aren’t quite the same and that sometimes loving people is hard. So why do we often avoid hard love even though it’s clear that it’s obedience.
Steve Ansell: You know, I think we generally stay away from things that are hard. We would like to have things that are easy. Um, Jesus said that his road was narrow. He said that his way was hard. He said there were going to be few people following down that road. And so again, this is where I was trying to make the point. And I think it’s critical is that trying to do that hard road by yourself is not going to be possible. You need to do that road driven and empowered by the Holy Spirit. And I think that’s where your point earlier, surrender, letting the Holy Spirit take charge of your life. Let him him do the work. And you really just being the vessel. Um, a clay vessel at that, not even a particularly pretty or nice one, but just useful in his kingdom.
Pastor Brian Martin: Mhm. Yeah. What a challenge that is. And yet it’s what we’re called to.
Steve Ansell: Absolutely.
Pastor Brian Martin: And so what does it matter if it’s hard, if it’s what we’re supposed to do?
Steve Ansell: Yeah, but I think it’s very easy for people to say because it’s hard i can’t do it. And I think we have to say you’re right. You can’t do it. The Holy Spirit, and you need to do it.
Pastor Brian Martin: Absolutely. Well, brother, thanks for your time here on the pod. Thanks for sharing with us this weekend too. It’s always a, my, my whole family gets excited anytime you’re preaching. So thanks for sharing with us. We just really are blessed by it.
Steve Ansell: Well, thank you for having me on.
Pastor Brian Martin: Absolutely. And to the rest of you, thanks for joining us on the Calvary Callback. We hope this time was an encouragement to you and whether you are a part of our Calvary family, or if you’re listening from somewhere else in the world, we invite you to join us in our mission to pursue passion for Christ and compassion for people. For Steve Ansell, I’m Brian Martin. We’ll catch you next time on the Callback.