Pastor Brian Martin: Hey everyone, welcome to the Calvary Callback, a podcast where we take a deeper dive into the weekly sermon at Calvary Evangelical Free Church in Rochester, Minnesota. I’m back in the host chair and I’m Brian Martin. I’m here today with David Henry, who preached a sermon titled Love one Another. Looking at First John three, verses 11 through 15. Mr. Henry, how are you?
David Henry: I’m great. I’m a little bit on the warm side because I just walked.
Pastor Brian Martin: Well, see. Exactly. Great segue into my very first point. So, our series that we’ve been doing all summer in First John is called walk in the light. And of course, you had to be a part of this because you’re probably the most prolific walker I know. Uh, so tell us a little bit about, I mean, do you call this a hobby? Is it you’re just your workout routine? Is it kind of all of the above? Like, tell us about your walking. Some of the listeners may not know.
David Henry: Well, I walked to work for 33 years. I lived close enough to my occupation that I was able to walk. Then after I retired, I went dormant for a few years. And then when Covid rolled around and everybody was in lockdown, I said, no, I’m not in lockdown. I’m going to get out and walk.
Pastor Brian Martin: There you.
David Henry: Go. And so then I started walking a minimum of 100 miles a month, and I did that for over five years before I had to have a knee replacement.
Pastor Brian Martin: Well, I suppose you wore that thing out a little bit.
David Henry: I exceeded my warranty.
Pastor Brian Martin: That’s amazing. Yeah. That’s great. Well, it makes sense. It makes sense. And yeah, walking is just. It’s so good. It’s so I don’t want to use like an eastern sort of philosophy here, but I feel like it’s so grounding, you know, in the sense of we get out into nature, we feel the sunshine on our face. We, you know, can commune with God in that way. And we’re moving our body. And that helps us focus. It’s just so much about it. That’s good.
David Henry: I really enjoy it. I especially enjoy walking a lot on trails like the Douglas trail, Meadowood Trail. I look for wildflowers and I take pictures and post them on Facebook. Share them with my followers.
Pastor Brian Martin: Fantastic. I didn’t know that. Oh, I guess I better start being a follower. That’s incredible. So, you know a little more about you. So, you mentioned in the sermon this week that you first preached 45 years ago here at Calvary.
David Henry: That’s right.
Pastor Brian Martin: That’s incredible. That’s incredible. So, and you mentioned you were at a different church at that time. It was a pulpit swap. So how long have you been at Calvary then? Give or.
David Henry: Take? Just under 45 years.
Pastor Brian Martin: Okay. So, it was soon after that. He ended up coming this way. Wow. That’s incredible. I mean, I say this with all the love and respect in the world. I’ve not been doing anything for 45 years. So, I love that you’ve done that. That’s amazing. So how would you say I mean, so you’ve been walking with the Lord for a long time, obviously longer than even those 45 years. How has the world changed, do you think, and how do you think the church Generally not just Calvary, but obviously Calvary sort of your has been your home church for a long time. How do you think the church has responded to some of those changes? World has changed a lot.
David Henry: Yeah. I don’t think it’s changed for the good. I see us adapting more to the culture rather than us changing the culture.
Pastor Brian Martin: Sure.
David Henry: And so, what was unacceptable in the past is now norm true for many believers.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. That’s an interesting challenge. I think, you know, because, you know, you’ve heard probably the saying of like, you can’t be so heavenly minded that you become no earthly good. Right? And I think there’s a hard challenge for believers to, like, live in that tension of, I want to successfully engage neighbors and friends and coworkers. So, I need to understand them well enough to do that. Even those who are far from God or reject Christianity or whatever it might be, but we also don’t want to get sucked into that. Yeah. So, it’s a, that’s a tricky thing to be. And yet, you know, we do need to, in one sense, love the world in another way. Of course, we’re not supposed to love the world. We have biblical language around that. So, it just depends on what we mean by those things. But I think the church has some challenges with that. You know, how do we stay relevant? I’m reminded of a friend of mine who, when I took over as the youth pastor at my previous church, they had stopped doing like small groups in the church. They were doing them outside of the church. And I asked him, I said, that’s curious to me. Why are you doing that? He said, because I think people are afraid to come into the church building. And I was like; I don’t think that’s true anymore. I think people outside the church think the church is pretty irrelevant. I think they think about it very much, you know, and I do think we’ve reached a point in our culture where that’s somewhat true. What do you think about that? Do you think people still see the church as relevant and therefore a threat, or do they see it more as irrelevant?
David Henry: I think most of the common culture would see it as irrelevant. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it depends upon the situation. But, you know, earlier you used the phrase two heavenly minded to be earthly good. Well, I’ve thought about the flip of that too for believers. True. You know, especially as we’ve looked through the message of First John and it talked about not loving the world. Yeah. You know, sometimes we’re too earthly minded to be heavenly good.
Pastor Brian Martin: That’s well argued. I agree, yeah, I agree. It definitely can cut both ways. And. Oh boy. Well, let’s look at our passage for today. I just want to read verse 11 where you started. This was the first verse in your passage. For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. So, this, I think, speaks to some of what you were just saying about culture and how it’s changed. How would you define love? Because I think that there’s competing cultural ideas of what love is. And then secondly, with that, why is loving one another so much harder than it sounds?
David Henry: Oh, good question. I would start defining love by how God has loved us.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. Oh that’s.
David Henry: Good. And that’s unconditionally. I mean, he loved us when we were not lovable. And I think that’s part of the problem that we have of loving others is that we look at others and we judge them and we say, you know, this person may or may not be worthy of my love because of who they are or what they’ve done.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah.
David Henry: You know, in the past, uh, and it’s still some of the cases I’ve dealt with poor self-image. And if I’m not able to love myself, it’s difficult for me to love others.
Pastor Brian Martin: True. Yeah. And we’re reminded there of Romans five eight, like while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. I mean, that’s a remarkable phrase, right? Because he was basically looking at all the terrible we’ve ever done. And he’s like, I’m going to die for you anyway. That’s incredible.
David Henry: It’s unbelievable. God’s love for us.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. Yeah. So then to that second part. So, okay. So yeah. So, so some of it is you’re saying the self-love piece, right? If, if there isn’t, if I can’t love myself or receive God’s love properly, that probably impacts my ability to love one another. Are there other reasons you think it might be hard to express love?
David Henry: Uh. I tend to be an introvert, so it’s difficult for me to, uh, connect with others or establish relationships with others and being unable to do that or lacking the skills to do that, that that impacts my being able to have a meaningful impact on their lives by loving them, you know, seeking out those relationships.
Pastor Brian Martin: Sure, sure. Yeah. I hear that. Although my experience has been and, and I don’t know that I know you well enough to speak to this, but I find that, you know, I’m a raging extrovert, obviously, and I know a lot of people. And that’s great. And I enjoy that. But a lot of introverts in my life, maybe there are a number of people they know isn’t as high, but they love really deeply the people that they know they’re willing to sacrifice for their circle in a way that’s really beautiful too. And so, you know, I wouldn’t want people to think that it has to be a total number of people. I think I think we can love deeply with a smaller number of relationships too. And I think that’s totally fair. And I don’t think that’s outside of the definition of love that you were saying earlier either. I mean, I think that can be that can be great too.
David Henry: Well, it’s been interesting. My wife died a couple years ago, and she was more of a, she wasn’t an extrovert, but she was more so than I was. Sure. And now that she’s gone, I’ve felt a personal need to be more extroverted, even though that’s against my personality. Sure. But, you know, relationships were very important to her, and she impacted so many different lives.
Pastor Brian Martin: So many people.
David Henry: And so, I want to have in, in a sense, I want to honor her by trying to do the same.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. That’s wonderful. Yeah. I mean, what a stalwart of this church she was for so many years. We all miss her; obviously not like you do. But, uh, she was so sweet with my kids and my family. And just one of those people that I think has made Calvary what it is of this warm, wonderful community that we get to be a part of. And she was such a stalwart of that for so many years as are you, uh, continuing forward. But yeah, we love Miss Marion and look forward to seeing her again someday.
David Henry: But we certainly do.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yes, indeed. Well, you mentioned Cain and Abel. And you touched on this, but I want to drill down a little bit deeper into it. I think the story of Cain and Abel can be a little bit confusing. You talked about how, and I think especially to somebody who’s maybe new to reading the Bible, so help us unpack, why was Abel’s sacrifice acceptable? But Cain’s wasn’t.
David Henry: Oh, I wish we knew that.
Pastor Brian Martin: Well, yeah, we don’t know.
David Henry: The Bible is fairly silent on that. And, you know, I wish we had more of their backstory. Sure. Because being we’re just thrown into here’s Cain and Abel. Well, what do we know about them? Nothing other than that. Their brothers, their sons of Adam and Eve but the Bible doesn’t really speak to the fact why Abel’s was more acceptable. Uh, the author of Hebrews, which also Mentions Abel, and his sacrifice said that his sacrifice was acceptable because he was more righteous. Yeah. And John seems to be implying that same fact here in in the passage that we’re looking at today. It said his deeds were evil and his brother’s were righteous. Yeah. But we don’t really have the details of that backstory in the book of Genesis. Yeah.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. To me, I agree, it doesn’t implicitly say it. And yet I feel like there’s an implication here. Uh, when, when it says, you know, the actions are righteous versus evil, deeds were evil and his brothers were righteous. Uh, there’s a part of me that feels like it’s not actually about the deeds, though. It’s about the heart posture, right? That categorically, Abel was a child of God and was bringing a sacrifice genuinely before the Lord in love in, you know, self-sacrifice for God, like he’s worth sacrificing for. And whereas Cain was like, I’m going to go through the motions, right? That’s how I’ve read that. But I think you’re right. I don’t think we know for sure. But to me, that’s the most compelling consideration is that it’s a heart posture issue, which I think we see throughout Scripture as well. That I’m thinking of Amos is Amos six. It’s in Amos. But, where God says, you know, I, I hate, I hate your worship. Basically, I’m paraphrasing here, but I hate your worship. And it’s like, what do you mean? You mean you hate our worship? And that’s the point he’s getting at is it’s a heart posture issue, right? So, yeah, so, you know, I wasn’t totally sure. It feels a little bit as we in this letter, you know, in this book, excuse me of first John, why can’t enable even gets brought in here is kind of interesting, right? And yet I think it speaks to this of the heart posture, right? So, John’s talking about loving one another and then brings up Cain and Abel. What do you see as that connection there?
David Henry: Well, in the previous passage, he talked about those that do not love their brothers. Yeah. You know, and in the context, he’s talking about believers, brothers and sisters in the Lord. And then he flips to Cain and Abel, which is a physical relationship. They’re in the same family. But, that’s why I brought up yesterday when we were looking at the back, the background to this, uh, in the book of Genesis, they brought, they both brought sacrifices. Yeah. We don’t have the context. We don’t see God giving them a command, you know, bring the sacrifices. This is the way that the sacrifices should be offered to me. But it’s interesting. Yeah. That John in one verse. It’s talking about the body of Christ believers. And the next verse, he’s talking about the ultimate, uh, sibling rivalry.
Pastor Brian Martin: Right? So yeah.
David Henry: You know, he’s using the word brother in two different senses.
Pastor Brian Martin: He is. Yeah, yeah. There’s, there’s a lot of, uh, interesting metaphor woven throughout this whole thing. And that’s why I’m so glad we’re going through this series because it’s helping us unpack the deeper meaning. You know, I think you can read first, John. At first blush, it means a lot. But as we’ve been digging deeper, there’s so much more there. There’s so many more layers, which is so exciting. Yeah, yeah, I think that’s an important connection. And I think, again, to your point, uh, not only are you right about what she said, but just even just that approach to scripture. Every context is king, right? We have to go back to the previous passage. You know, I only have the one printed on my little piece of paper here. But as you’re looking at the greater passage, it helps inform that. And that’s excuse me, so, so important. Yeah, I think, I think that’s a key for sure. Okay, so just moving kind of to a little bit of a different thing. You know, you asked a question to the group, uh, you know, to, to the, you know, gathered church here yesterday, you said, have you ever experienced hatred because of your faith? And I want to turn that back on you. I’m curious. You’ve been walking with the Lord for many years. Have you experienced hatred because of your faith? And if so curious, what happened? If not, I would ask you, what encouragement would you give somebody who is experiencing that?
David Henry: I think as Americans, for the most part, we have not, and I personally have experienced very little hatred because of my faith. Yeah. I’ve been in different contexts where, uh, one of my hobbies in the past was helping crew for hot air balloons. Right. And most of the people that I worked with were not believers. Alcohol was a very important part of their lives. And it’s not a part of my life. So, they knew I was different. But I can’t say they really expressed hatred because of my being different from them. Sure. You know.
Pastor Brian Martin: You felt the differentness, but it wasn’t necessarily malicious in that sense. Yeah. Right. Gotcha.
David Henry: Because we had a common goal. So yeah. Faith wasn’t really something that they found important, but they knew it was important to me. But yeah, no, I never really experienced hatred myself. I think as again, as I think I said previously, Americans for the most part have not experienced hatred to the extent that much of the believing world has. Yeah.
Pastor Brian Martin: And I think that’s an important point to make because, you know, I would say there’s probably several Americans who have experienced maybe a very small thing, but frankly, that’s not what’s being talked about. I don’t think I mean, I think actual oppression is very different than somebody called you a mean name once or something, you know, and that’s okay. I mean, we don’t I don’t think we should feel like lesser Christians because we’ve not faced that opposition just because we live in a culture that’s based on Scripture, whether or not people know that that’s, you know, the structure of our government and everything was based around scriptural truth. So, there’s some reasons why it’s like that. It doesn’t make people lesser Christians, but we also need to understand. We don’t really understand. I think so, if we were meeting an international brother or sister who had faced that, how could we encourage them, do you think? It’s not easy because we don’t have that experience.
David Henry: Yeah, exactly. I’d want to know more about their experience. You know what led to the opposition that they’re experiencing? True. Is it just because of the culture that they’re living in because of, you know, that particular culture is opposed to Christianity? And therefore, since they’re a Christian, right, you know, they experience that hatred. Yeah. So, I’d like to know where they’re coming from. Yeah. You know what led to the opposition that they’re experiencing? As we think about the message of the Bible and the possibility of end times, you know, when, when is when are the end times going to be? I think we need to take to heart what John says here where he says, do not be surprised, brothers. If you experience hatred, it’s something that could be on the horizon even if we’re not currently experiencing it. Good point. And so, we have to be prepared in case that does come along. But yeah, trying to understand our brothers and sisters that have gone through that, it’s very hard for us to do that because we haven’t experienced it ourselves. Yeah.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah, I agree. And yet the point you make, I think, is the point that gets made throughout all of Scripture, which is faithfulness to the Lord is what matters despite the circumstances, whether your circumstances are good, which frankly comes with its own challenges or your circumstances are terrible. I mean, over and over, it keeps coming to mind as we’re discussing this now is, you know, Daniel and the clear oppression he was facing and the attacks on him. And the reason he is an example for us in so many ways is just his faithfulness. He remains committed to the Lord. He doesn’t compromise his beliefs. He doesn’t compromise his behavior. Uh, he ends up finding some very clever solutions to some of the hey, can I just eat the vegetables instead? You know, things like that. But not only did he survive all of that, but we see him interacting then with several kings and kingdoms and rising up in the ranks because his faithfulness to the Lord not only was a good thing in the face of oppression and opposition, but following the Lord is helpful too, right? So, even when it can seem dire, I think faithfulness is always what it’s been about, right? Yeah.
David Henry: I would agree. Another example that I would bring to mind though would be Jeremiah who, like Daniel, was a prophet. Yes. Very faithful to the Lord. And yet throughout his life he has experienced persecution. And, you know, he was thrown into a hole in the ground. He, he literally paid with his life, probably at the end of his ministry. It’s not recorded in the Bible. But, you know, he was dragged off to Egypt with those that were fleeing the Babylonians. And it’s felt that he died there.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. And that’s such an interesting contrast to because Daniel at least had some good stories to tell, like, hey, you know, like I didn’t get eaten by the lions, you know, like whatever. And, uh, but Jeremiah sort of didn’t he, his faithfulness was not rewarded on this side of heaven so much as we know from recorded or not very much. And so, you know, God’s response on in earthly terms. We don’t know. We don’t know if we’re going to get the kind of blessing we’re looking for, even though we’ll be blessed in eternity. Yeah, so that’s a great point that Jeremiah. It’s a very different story.
David Henry: And just to bring it back to the message of First John. Loving one another. The persecution that Jeremiah experienced was from his own people. He was actually favored by the Babylonians. Babylonians said, yeah, you can stay in the land. You know, you’ve been telling the people to yield to us. We think you’re great. His own people said, “Why you’re a traitor. You’re a traitor”. Yeah. So, he was experiencing not love from his own people, but opposition and persecution. And in our current culture, as we think of this message of loving one another, we have so much divide, division caused by political views.
Pastor Brian Martin: Good point.
David Henry: You know, and people, even though they share the same faith. Well, you know, you don’t believe in the same party line that I do. You don’t you don’t you know, this president is not my president and so on. And, uh, you know, politics has become a great dividing line between believers.
Pastor Brian Martin: Absolutely true. Yeah. And that can be really challenging. You’re right. I think if there’s a danger of more oppression and opposition coming, it’s probably more from the inside than the outside in some ways. I think you’re probably right about that. That’s a very interesting point. Oh, well, staying focused on Jesus is what we’re all going to have to do no matter what. Mm. Incredible. So, near the end of your sermon there, you shared a very compelling story about your nephew. And thanks for sharing that just off the top. I mean, I was just moved by that story. And you and Marian’s response to it, as well, and just the loving response of it. So, I felt like you explained this really well, but I want to give you a chance to expand a little bit on it. You were clear, I think that it’s not that it was good that this thing happened, that this murder happened, that that it’s not good that it happened. It’s that God can make good out of it. So, here’s the softball question and then give me some commentary. Does God want us to sin so that good can happen?
David Henry: Oh, my. I would hope not. No, no.
Pastor Brian Martin: Certainly not. Right.
David Henry: No. And even, you know, again, going back to my nephew’s, uh, situation, he had been brought up in a church-going family. You know, he knew the truth, but he had made some decisions that led him off to the wrong way. Yeah. You know, he was in an improper relationship, and that’s what led to the murder. Wow. Should we sin so that God can bring good out of it? Well, no. Let’s read the book of Romans. Paul argues that same question. You know, should we sin so that we can experience more of God’s grace? And obviously the question is no. But I’m thankful that God’s grace is there when we do sin, and that God can bring good out of our lousy decisions because we make them every day.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah, absolutely. I have this funny mental image of this concept. It’s kind of goofy and it’s not biblical. It’s just from Brian’s weird brain. But I think of God in these situations as being like a martial arts master where, you know, you continue training in martial arts. Part of the point is you don’t ever throw a punch if you can ever avoid it, right? And so, so much of it is actually about defensive and, and evasive maneuvers. And so, I almost think of sin as like me throwing a punch at God and God, like grabbing my wrist and pulling me to the side. And it’s like, well, I’m going to take you over here. Now, you know, he didn’t want the punch thrown, but he’s gonna manipulate me where he needs me to be, right? Because God works for good for all those who love him, right? You know, so he didn’t want the punch, but he’s gonna maneuver me despite my sin. You know, I don’t know. It’s probably an imperfect picture, but you get what I’m going for there.
David Henry: Yeah, I sure do. God is amazing. His patience with us, his tolerance of the foolish decisions we make. Yeah. God’s love is unbelievable.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah, it really is. And it should humble us and make us more grateful more often than it does. I think, you know, and but of course, that’s one of the reasons we gather. You know, I think to an unbeliever, you know, giving up two hours of your Sunday morning every week sounds crazy. I mean, it just sounds silly, but not if you have that perspective, right? God is so good. Everything that I have that is good is of the Lord, and he deserves to have my gratitude and my worship and my attention, you know? Yeah, it’s such a such a big thing. So, to that point, you’ve been you’ve been going to church for a long time. I have only grown in my appreciation and respect for long obedience. And so, this thing we call faith is, I think, more of a marathon than a sprint. Yes. Right. Yes. So as someone who’s been walking with the Lord longer than I have, and what are some encouragements you could give or some insight or some challenges for following Jesus? Well, for the long haul.
David Henry: Well, one illustration that I would use is, uh, our relationship with Christ is equated to a marriage. Uh, the book of revelation especially speaks to that. And, uh, so going back to my relationship with my late wife, we made a decision from day one that divorce was never going to be anything that we would ever consider. You know, we knew that there would be hard times, uh, things that we would not agree on. But we threw that out. We said that’s never going to be an option no matter what, because of our faith and because of our commitment to each other. Well, I see the same thing, uh, in church commitments, our commitment to the body of Christ. Just a few weeks ago, somebody asked me, uh, how is it that you’ve been able to stay at the same church for 45 years? You know.
Pastor Brian Martin: Calvary’s had some rough patches, too.
David Henry: Right, right. And we had a, um. You might not always agree with the decisions of the lead pastor or with the, the board, you know, decisions that they make. But again, our commitment is not just to the church, it’s to the Lord.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah.
David Henry: And if this is where he wants us to be and this is where he can use us, this is where we want to stay.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah.
David Henry: So again, I go back to the marriage relationship, and I use that as a picture. We’re married to the Lord and we’re in this for the long haul. You know, we’re not going to bail just because there’s a decision that we might not agree with. We’re going to work through that. We’re going to work through our differences, just like we would in our relationship with our spouse.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. Yeah. That’s a good word. Yeah. Being committed to the body is such a big thing. And the local body, yes, but certainly the universal body as much and maybe that looks different. And I think, you know, to your point, there can be times, of course, to step away from a church. Yes, there’s times to do that and it can be appropriate. But if you’re there, be there fully and that not because the church needs you to stay, that the local nonprofit needs you to stay, but because staying does something right. It can build you overtime. And you know, I know your wonderful work with the tiny humans, as I like to say with some of our preschool age babies and toddlers and things like, I mean, you’ve held kids in multiple, in multiple generations of the same family.
David Henry: Yes, I have.
Pastor Brian Martin: Which is just incredible. I know you have some two generations. Do you have any three generations?
David Henry: Uh, not that I’m aware of, but I’m probably getting close to that.
Pastor Brian Martin: Maybe. Yeah. See if we can work that. And there’s something about that isn’t there? Just seeing being around long enough to see growth and change. And these, these kids go from the, you know, little diaper wearers that we start with, and then they grow up and get married and have kids of their own. And watching that, what a joy and a privilege that is when you’re a part of a community like this.
David Henry: Yeah, I just had a fun example of that recently. About well, 17 years ago, there was a family, uh, the wife was doing her residency at the Mayo Clinic. Okay. And I started to babysit their child 2 or 3 times a week for 18 months, the first 18 months of his life. Well, I’ve stayed in contact with that family, but they moved away to North Dakota. Marion and I went up to visit them probably when he was maybe this child was 4 or 5 years old. I really haven’t had much contact with him. I still remained in contact with his family. Well, recently he graduated from high school, and they invited me to his graduation party.
Pastor Brian Martin: Oh come.
David Henry: On. And I thought, oh, you know, this family really meant a lot to me. I meant a lot to them. And just to be able to reconnect in that way, you know, here’s this child who was a baby when I was taking care of him. Now he’s taller than I am. I had to look up to him. And he was appreciative of what I did for him 17 years previously. Wow. You know, even though he had zero memory because of his age at that time. Yeah. But just because of the stories that his parents had told and the relationship that I maintained with them.
Pastor Brian Martin: Yeah. That’s special. And what a great example of, you know, the capital C church, you know, staying connected, loving and caring for each other even after all these years. That’s, that’s a beautiful thing. Oh, man. Well, David, thank you so much for sitting down with me today and for preaching the word to us this weekend. We appreciate it. Believe it or not, we’re there on our time. Time flies when you’re having fun, I think.
David Henry: It sure does.
Pastor Brian Martin: Thanks for being here. And thanks for, everybody for joining us on the Calvary Call Back. We hope this time was an encouragement to you. And whether you’re a part of our Calvary family, or if you’re listening from somewhere else in the world, we invite you to join us in our mission to pursue passion for Christ and compassion for people. For David Henry, I’m Brian Martin. We’ll catch you next time on the Call Back.