Pastor Jamie Robinson: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Calvary Callback, a podcast where we take a deeper dive into the weekly sermon at Calvary Evangelical Free Church in Rochester, Minnesota. My name is Jamie Robinson, and I’m your host this week. And joining me today is Pastor Kyle Bushre, who preached this past Sunday the sermon Do Not Love The World, based on 1 John 2: 13-17 in our current series, walk in the light. Hey, Kyle how are you?

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Hey, good, Jamie, good to have you back in the host chair this week.

Pastor Jamie Robinson: I’m back in the chair again.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: That’s right. That’s probably some jumbling this summer as we go through and different guys preach and different guys host. So it’ll be a fun little journey to see what happens this summer.

Pastor Jamie Robinson: Yeah, you’ll find yourself in this seat. I’m assuming probably fairly soon.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yes. Yeah, it will be fun.  I’ll enjoy hosting. I love interviewing. It’s what I used to do when I was a…. well, I used to be a TV reporter back in my very early college days. I was a TV reporter and I was studying journalism. So I actually really like thinking through questions and grilling people and getting to getting underneath the, the surface of things.

Pastor Jamie Robinson: Right. Yeah, yeah. Great. Did you have any really awkward interviewees that you kind of wish you’d never embarked on the interview in the first place?

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Oh. Oh, I don’t think so. I mean, if anything, the problem wasn’t them. It was me. I, I was new to broadcasting, so I’ve got stories of, uh, of plenty of awkward moments that I created myself by not being prepared in advance.

Pastor Jamie Robinson: Okay. And these were live moments?

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Oh, yes. Well, no, no, no, these would have been… One of them I could think of was live. There was no question it was live. There was nothing I could do about it. Another was live to tape, meaning once we were seated and going, there was no editing. And it was like this show in that way. We don’t start over, so it can be pretty difficult to host. I applaud you for what you’re doing here of hosting a show like this.

Pastor Jamie Robinson: I’ve only been on the other end once. A few years ago, I was interviewed by a local radio station for a concert that was being put on at the church I was at, and the radio guy turns up and I’m thinking, this is a pre-recorded thing. And so he sets up in this table and with 30 seconds to go, he tells me, okay, we’re going live in 30 seconds. Are you ready? And I’ve never been so scared in my life.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: You thought there’d be some editing? You thought you’d be…. Oh, no.

Pastor Jamie Robinson: I had no idea it was going out on live radio.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah, well, I’ll just tell you, the one live moment that I had was I was hosting a Tuesday night TV show. I was the host of… It makes it sound like a super fun. It was after the Board of Administration for our township was done with this meeting, I would bring in one of the people from the township and ask him about, ask him questions about the things they came up with that night. And I’ll tell you what, one night I got in there, I sat down, I had everything arranged, all everything was perfect. I looked over at the guest I had invited in and I could not remember his name. Could not. Not written anywhere in my notes. Couldn’t remember the man’s name. And we went live.

Pastor Jamie Robinson: And you can’t even call him brother.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: No, there’s no hey, you. There’s no way around it. So I just said, you know, I’m so sorry. Forgive me. What is your name again? Of course, it’s graphically under his his, uh, on the screen. It’s graphically underneath him. But of course I don’t have that. It was an awful moment of lack of preparation. It’s probably why I prepare so much now.

Pastor Jamie Robinson: So we all have those moments.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Oh, for sure, for sure.

Pastor Jamie Robinson: Okay. Well, 1 John 2: 13-17.  Do not love the world or the things of this world. Um, I’ll tell you one thing I’m noticing as we, as we go through this letter more and more is that the relational language that John uses, you know, passage from last week had a lot of brothers and sons and fathers. And again, in this passage, he’s using the term father for God here. Um, back earlier in chapter two, again, relational, you know, children, little children. So obviously he’s really using, uh, this familial language to, to kind of maybe soften a little bit, you know, he’s giving us some really hard, uh, teaching here, but he’s softening it by reminding us that God is our father, that we are his children. It’s really starting to come through as we, as we go through these passages.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: It is, and it’s not softening for the sake of softening. So, you know, sometimes we try to just soften our language so that we don’t come off so harsh, but we really have a very harsh thing to say. Uh, that’s big in Minnesota I understand. We, we, you know, uh, taking off the rough edges of things. Uh, and, uh, that’s not what John is doing. He’s not he’s not saying little children just kind of get us into a nice mood so that he can say hard things. He’s saying these things because we actually are a spiritual family. That the relationship we have with God is not a judge and dictator and, uh, ephemeral spirit or, uh, you know, God who is to be feared because he is like a, a dictator or a strong man. Satan is referred to as a strong man that must be bound.

Pastor Jamie Robinson: Mhm.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: God is referred to as a father because we were always made to be in relationship with him. And by the binding of the spirit with one another we are all one family. So when we say brothers and sisters, uh, spiritually is what we mean by that. Obviously we don’t mean by blood. Uh, but that is a bond that’s stronger than blood, as we find. And so when John says these things, he’s not just trying to take off the rough edges and make it seem like, uh, we’re all good buddies here so why don’t you listen to my advice? He’s saying we’re united together as one family in the family of God our father. This is loving. All of this that I have to say, even the really, really difficult things are loving things because we want our family to be healthy and whole and strengthened.

Pastor Jamie Robinson: Yeah. And of course, this passage that we’re looking at, that you preached on Sunday, we’re looking at today is a passage to warn us against loving the world, the world’s system, or the things of the world too much and to redirect that love to, to God the Father. Um, I wonder how can we enjoy, how can we enjoy the things of the world, you know, because there’s many good gifts in the world. Everything from food to sports to entertainment to reading, leisure activities, culture and the arts. How can we enjoy those things rightly? What should we be doing differently as Christians to enjoy the good things of life? Enjoy the things that God has given us, the gifts without then them becoming idols and us starting to treasure them more than God Himself?

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah, it can be difficult because we are tempted to see everything that’s good in the world through the lens that the world sees it. So we enjoy our sports teams just for the sake of enjoying competition and having fun without a thought for God. Uh, we engage in celebrations, uh, even celebrations like weddings that would usually have a God component to them with most of our focus being on the couple or the reception or the fun or the, you know, whatever it is, the escape of it all, uh, without too much of a thought for God. How is a Christian supposed to be different? Well, Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 10 that whether we eat or drink or whatever we do, we should do it for the glory of God. Meaning we should see all of these good things that are in God’s creation as opportunities to magnify, to reflect the glory of our creator. And so we, we do, we engage in everything all the way down to eating and drinking, right? That’s why he chooses that it’s the most, some of the most fundamental things that we do. Foundational things we do just to stay alive. He’s saying, you can do those things in such a way that it is worship of the Lord. How? Is it just because you have to say, I glorify God in doing all these things out loud? Not necessarily. Is it just because we pray before our meals? Uh. Not necessarily. All of that is a good thing. Jesus gave us that pattern to pray before the meal.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: But the the idea is, I engage in all these things, and as I do in my heart, what I’m really rejoicing in is that a good God has given us this joy, this blessing, this gift. And so within myself, there’s a worship. Uh, as I participate, if I’m around folks that I can glorify God out loud with, I might do that. Uh, I don’t think it’s cheesy when a sports, uh, when a player who’s done very well, well in the game is interviewed on ESPN and the first thing he says is, first of all, I want to give all glory to God my Savior, Jesus Christ. Without him, I couldn’t do any of these things. And then goes on with the interview. I don’t think that’s cheesy. Some people roll their eyes when they see that. I know some Christians that roll their eyes when they see that. That is that player trying to find, trying to use the platform, right? He doesn’t get on ESPN every day, and he’s using the platform there to be able to say something about the priority in his life and why he plays, and recognizing that it is only by God’s grace that he would have the ability, the skill, the body to be able to play. I think that’s a way of glorifying God while we do these things. Uh, and again, I don’t think it means you have to declare it every single time. I don’t think you have to declare God’s glory as you eat every bite of your next meal.

Pastor Jamie Robinson: It can be an internal thing. It can be a state of mind. It can be an attitude of the heart, as you say, eating good food and tasting good food, and just internally being really grateful. This is a great gift from God I’m enjoying and reminding myself it’s from him. It’s because of him that we have this good food to enjoy.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Exactly. Or yeah. Or whatever it is. Um, you know, uh, a new baby has entered the family. You know, we glorify God for it. We able to pay our bills this month. Thank you, God, that we’re able to do that. Um, and so yeah, whether you’re eating, drinking, whether you’re playing sports, whether you’re going to your job, whether you’re just trying to get through the week, glorifying God in all things is the difference between how we love God with the stuff he’s provided and how we love the stuff. If all we’re doing is engaging these things because we enjoy them, but God gets no glory in any sense, even from our hearts. This is something that needs to be corrected.

Pastor Jamie Robinson: Yeah. What are some warning signs that we might be loving the things of the world a bit too much? What are some of the telltale signs that we might see in ourselves that we, you know, we’re taking this too far. We’re enjoying this gift a little bit too much here.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: That’s a great question. There are probably a lot of them. The first one that leaps to mind is what happens to you in your mind and heart when the thing goes away.

Pastor Jamie Robinson: Yeah. That’s a great question to ask. Yeah.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah. Okay. Great, you love your new car. Uh, so you got to come out to the parking lot and somebody put a big scratch in it. That’s annoying. I would be upset if that happened. Uh, but what happens?  Are you filled with fury and revenge and a desire for justice? Or can you say, well God, you blessed me with a car and now you’ve blessed me with a scratch? I know that seems very trite. That’s a very easy one to overcome, seemingly. Um, I think it’d be easier to it’s easier to see if I move it away from a car and I make it your own body. Right. So I broke my shoulder last year in a dumb softball accident. Right. You remember this? Yeah. And I had to get to a place where I said, all right, well, Lord, um, I, uh, this is the body you made. This is the body you made. And you decided, uh, through just an accident that I’m going to have a broken shoulder. And if that’s what you’ve decided to bring into my life, okay, then that’s what I have to deal with, and I’m going to deal with it. I’m going to try to bring glory to you as I deal with this, even though I was in a lot of pain and a lot of hurt, you know, that kind of thing that when something goes away that you had before, maybe you even took it for granted before, but it goes away. What happens? Does your heart move toward the Lord? Then that thing is probably not an idol. You’re probably seeing that thing the right way, but I don’t know. Do you have thoughts on how do you know when when something has moved from blessing that I use to glorify God to… I’m just going to throw your question right back to you.

Pastor Jamie Robinson: Yeah, no, I fully agree. I think the our heart response when the thing is removed is really telling. I think that really shows. It can be a good thing. And I think the Lord does that from time to time with different things in our life, to not to test, but just to just to reveal in his loving way to see how things are exposed.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Um, another one that jumps to mind would be what happens with, what do you do with disappointment? I’m not talking about the loss of something. I’m talking about you had a plan. And unlike James, you didn’t pray. Uh, if the Lord wills, we will do such and such. Okay. You just made a plan. You were very keen on it. You had to get in that college. You had to get, you know, that girl had to respond to you and become your girlfriend and want to marry you. And it didn’t happen. Or you were hoping for that job and it fell through and you didn’t end up getting the thing you wanted, or you didn’t make the team or you didn’t, whatever it is, what happens in that moment for you? Is it anguish? Is it slipping into depression? Or do you say, all right, Lord, what opportunities are you opening up for me?  Okay. You. That isn’t the path for me. But that doesn’t mean you don’t have a path. Just, what is it? Show me how to glorify you. You know, that’s another…

Yeah. And I think another signal as well is when those kind of things happen, do we start turning inwards? Are we starting to feel sorry for ourselves and wanting others to have sympathy for us. Is there an inward kind of momentum going in or, yeah, is it a turning back out to the Lord? Okay. Like with you, how can how can you use this opportunity in my life?

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Right? Yeah, yeah, there’s, there’s probably lots of other ways too, but those ones that jump to mind.

Pastor Jamie Robinson: Yeah. So that’s kind of on a personal level. Widening it out to the church, uh, what are some of the things, just in your opinion, um, maybe some of the things of the world, the love of the world, things that have crept into our churches, our church life, um, uh, you know, not any one particular denomination or type of church, but just generally, how has the world crept in? And again, how can we be on the lookout for the, the system of the world coming into our church life?

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Oh, boy, there’s a lot of that. Um, well, again, the one that comes to mind, I think probably most quickly is, uh, the, uh, the political ideologies that have now been tied in to the gospel. Things that, the gospel plus, whatever it is. And I’m not talking about any particular ideology. Anything that  gets, um, that works its way in and says, this is the Christian way to see this or that. And you look at it and it’s not biblical. Uh, it’s certainly not commanded or mandated in Scripture. Uh, but it’s, it comes from some sort of political ideology that you agree with, and then you tie that to the gospel. Um, that is certainly a way things are creeping in. It is dividing churches. We saw that with Covid. We’ve seen it since, um, with our world becoming more and more polarized, polarized people are picking up their side, they’re taking their side and they’re trying to bring Jesus with them and make their view, the Christian view. Uh, and the truth is the gospel has something to say and something to correct within all of the world ideologies, all of the platforms.

Pastor Jamie Robinson: It does

Pastor Kyle Bushre: There’s challenges, the gospel brings challenges to everyone and every thought. And so the goal of taking, we’re told to take every thought captive. We should be running all of our thoughts that we, that come to us, uh, through the lens of is this how Jesus would act? Is this how he would think? Uh. Is this what God has required of us? Does this thing that I think lead me to the fruits of the spirit? Do the fruits of the spirit come pouring out of me when I think about these things or when I think, uh, when I choose this particular platform, uh, that sort of scrutiny is not happening. So when we say, how do, how do the things of the world creep in? I think there’s a lot less scrutiny and a lot more people are just grabbing on to whatever they think out there and sort of baptizing it with, uh, christianese, but not really not really thinking about whether it’s, it’s, uh, rooted in the gospel.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah, yeah.

Pastor Jamie Robinson: And these things come in slowly and they come in over time and they come in gradually. And it’s not always easy to spot and they just get bolted on, as you said, to our Christian perspective. And sometimes we just need to stop and take a look back and think, How has the world crept in to to the way that we do church and the way that we talk about ministry and talk about the gospel?

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah, I there’s just not enough discernment happening, I think in that way. Uh, and I would also, I would also say this, um, there’s, there’s a lot of folks who are, uh, really keen and really interested in trying to….. You know, we’re in this book, 1 John right. God is love. What’s coming that, that passage, that verse is coming. And there’s a lot of folks that really want to, um, pack that word love with as much worldly definition of love as they can. And, uh, as opposed to studying God, the God who is, and then saying, okay, this character of God is what tells me what love is. They flip it around, they say love is God. And so everything that I think love is I now assigned to the Godhead, I designed, I assigned to the character of God. And that, I think, is another way, sort of a back door way into bringing in all sorts of feelings into the church community and letting feelings rule doctrine. That is another, I think, side door, back door way of getting worldly ideas into the church.

Pastor Jamie Robinson: Right.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: And so what we really should be doing is saying, okay, I can see why you would feel that way from a worldly perspective. I understand the emotions behind this. I understand your feelings, but are your feelings, are your emotions being shaped by the character of God? And if they are not, then they need to be changed. We can’t just be people who are led around by our feelings, tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine. I would say by every wind of feeling as well.  We need to know right doctrine and then let God’s word and truth be the thing that shapes how we address the feelings in our world. And that doesn’t mean we should be stomping on people’s feelings, who who feel strongly in a way that is, uh, that is unbiblical. I want to help that person see more biblically, because there’s probably a kernel of truth in how they’re feeling. Um, you know, we can think, we can have wrong doctrine, but still feel, uh, like people should be treated equitably, for instance, or feel like people should be cared for or listened to or things like that. And I would heartily agree, but we, uh, and maybe that’s not happening. And maybe that’s part of why you’re feeling the way you are. I’ll affirm that piece, but I also, that needs to be tempered by truth. And some of a lot of that is not happening even for folks in the church whose feelings are being pulled away from biblical truth. And they just don’t know how to reconcile it. And I’d say you kind of have to have it remain in that backbone of truth.

Pastor Jamie Robinson: Yeah. That’s helpful. Really helpful. Yeah. And this, this whole book is a book of, of contrasts, you know, truth and untruth, light and darkness, obedience, disobedience. Um, I think there’s another contrast I saw coming through in this particular passage, the kind of contrast between a short sighted view, you know, the view of the world and all it has to offer versus the long sighted view of eternity and the will of God and obeying God and being in his will. It’s just interesting. That’s another contrast I think, that John is, is bringing out. There is that you can be satisfied in the things of the world. Yes, but they’re they’re not lasting.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Pastor Jamie Robinson: It’s a short sighted view. You can trade all you have for eternity for what you get now. But in the blink of an eye, it’s gone.  And he’s, calling us to say, fix your eyes on something that’s longer lasting. Goes into eternity. That’s the take. Take delight in God and follow his will and find pleasure in his will.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Absolutely. I mean, it’s an age old analogy, right? But the idea of, uh, the Titanic hitting that iceberg, taking on water, the boat didn’t sink instantaneously.

Pastor Jamie Robinson: Mhm.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: People are still eating and drinking and having a great time on a boat that’s sinking. It’s going down. Then they find out about it. Now, what are you going to do? You’re going to continue to eat and drink and just do your act as if there’s nothing wrong. Or are you going to get out there into the crowd and you’re going to get on that lifeboat? That’s far less. There’s no food and drink out there. It’s, there’s no comfort on that lifeboat, but it will save you. And that’s what he’s saying here, you know, the world is passing away along with its desires.

Pastor Jamie Robinson: Yes.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: But whoever does the will of God abides forever. You grab on to the the life that comes in Jesus. And by the way, there’s flourishing. It’s not, it’s not this second life that’s laborious and difficult and hard in every sense. No, no, no. We can enjoy the creation that God has given us. We just do it for God’s glory. And we do say no to a lot of things that are robbing us of our joy. But it is a joyous life to follow Jesus all the way into eternity. And that boat’s not sinking.  That’s eternal.

Pastor Jamie Robinson: And the language he’s using is present. I mean, passing away. It’s not like at some point in the future it will pass. It’s like he’s describing it as a sinking ship. It is passing now. The world system is dying. It’s going down.  And he uses the same future language or the kind of present language for abiding. Like it’s not again, it’s not some abiding in the future. It’s like you can abide now.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yes. Yeah. I mean, and I don’t know how you look at the world in the state that it’s in and not see it passing away. I mean, really, what are the worldviews that are so hopeful and joyful and life giving that are happening, that make sense of our our world that has no problems in it? That’s just not the reality we live in. We live in a world that is, has a lot of brokenness in it. People are hurting. Uh, there’s a lot of choices being made at the highest levels that are difficult and worrisome and cause great fear. And, and then, uh, you know, and what are the worldviews that explain that in a way that can bring us hope and peace? I know of only one.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: God’s word, the biblical worldview makes sense of a dying world in which I can have hope as I abide in a Savior who’s going to bring me through a dying world and into an undying eternity.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: That is a compelling, compelling aspect of the gospel that yes, is talked about here. And I love the fact. I love the fact that he says, not only is the world passing away, but so is its desires. Yes, those desires, those things that you have, those things that that fool you now and pull you away from Jesus, that’s not going to happen for eternity. That’s just for now. And that’s just for a time. And actually, the more you abide in Jesus now, the less those desires, those dying desires, uh, pull you away because you don’t get your joy in those anymore.

Pastor Jamie Robinson: That’s right. Yeah. Yeah, you see then for what they really are.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Yeah.

Pastor Jamie Robinson: Just before we finish, I’d love to just get your thoughts on… This passage is calling us to, to obey God, to do his will to be in the will of God and to, to find delight in God’s will. Um, it’s graduation season here, you know.

Pastor Jamie Robinson: We’re entering into that season of life. I’ve learned as an Englishman, embracing US culture that graduation season is a thing and it’s great. I mean, it’s fantastic.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: You don’t have that there.

Pastor Jamie Robinson: No, no. Not like it’s done here.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: It’s just like, oh, you’re done with school. Get out.

Pastor Jamie Robinson: Not all the open houses and everything, but it’s great. We love it. And obviously there’s, you know, there’s a lot of, uh, a lot of people in life, no matter what stage, but especially this stage of life thinking, how, how do I do the will of God? What does, how do I do that? How do I make sure I’m in the right place, doing the right thing, whether it’s study or work or whether it’s marrying somebody or whatever it might be, there’s a lot of people struggle knowing how to do the will of God. Can you briefly help us?

Pastor Kyle Bushre: Oh, briefly. Yeah, this is a whole podcast, but I will do it as briefly as I can. It’s important to understand that when John here in this passage says those who do the will of God, he’s not saying he’s not talking about some future predictive will. He’s not saying, figure out what God has for you in life. Make sure you do that. And therefore you are you are saved. You’re abiding in God. The will here is the will of God’s command. God has commanded, he has told us what he wants. We must do that will. Our desire must match his command. That’s what he’s saying. And so it’s actually backward looking. When we say the will of God…

Pastor Jamie Robinson: It’s the decree.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: It’s the decree. Yeah.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: The decreed will of God. And so in that way, it’s, uh, confess your sins as just all the things he said all so far here. Confess your sins and trust and repent and trust in Jesus and cling to him as a Savior, and then live for him and be discerning about the things in the world and reject those sinful things that are coming at you and mature and grow in your understanding of who Jesus is. Set your course, if you will, for life on the decreed will of God. Now about the future… And this is I was just talking to somebody this last weekend who asked me this very question and I said, this is sort of a young person’s question because I today, right now, I’m not walking around as a 48 year old man going, oh, no, God, what plans do you have for me? What, what’s coming? It’s just that young people have so many choices in front of them.

Pastor Jamie Robinson: That’s right. So many decisions.

Pastor Kyle Bushre: There’s and they’re big. They’re fairly large decisions. Who will I marry? Where will I go to school? What will I do for a career? These sorts of things. And those are good questions to ask, but I don’t want to, I want to relieve our young people of this idea that somehow God has a hidden, mysterious will for your life that you must discover so that you are faithful to him. We are told nowhere in Scripture to do this. What are we told? We are told in the Psalms, Delight yourself in the Lord, and he will give you the desires of your heart. Wait a minute. So all you have to do is delight yourself in the Lord, meaning do his decreed will. Make him your treasure. Make him your prize above all things. And then know that God, for that person is going to use the desires of your own heart to determine where you’re going to go? Exactly. That is what it is. So when you say, I want to do this thing. Ask yourself, are you delighting in the Lord? Yes. Is this a good thing? Is it, or is it a sinful thing? Would it be you being a selfish, sinful, worldly person to choose this? That might be true if you’re choosing the wrong spouse, that might be true. If you’re choosing a career that would lead you into a moral conundrum, if you will. Right. But it wouldn’t be if these things that you want to do, these passions in your heart lead you in a direction that would be a place where you can glorify God in everything that you do, whether you eat, drink, do your job, marry this person, build this family, live in this place, right? If you’re going to glorify God and doing those things, then do them wholeheartedly because God is working through your passions in that sense.

Pastor Jamie Robinson: Yeah. That’s great. That’s biblical and practical advice that comes together.  That’s great. Thank you Kyle. Great passage again. Really, really good reminders here in this letter of John and lots more, lots more to dig into over the coming weeks. So thank you so much. Thanks for joining us on the Calvary Callback. We hope this time was an encouragement to you. And whether you’re part of our Calvary family, or if you’re just listening from somewhere else in the world, we invite you to join us in our mission to pursue passion for Christ and compassion for people. We’ll see you next time on the Callback.